Mr. GUNCKEL. Suppose this was done; what would you save to the Government?

Major POWELL. I cannot state exactly, and there would be no saving to the Government except through the withdrawal and discharge of the troops who are now stationed in the country for the purpose of overawing the Indians. I suppose there were nearly 2,000 soldiers stationed within this Territory during the past year. A comparison of the number of soldiers in the Army with the appropriations made for the support of troops, shows that the soldiers on an average cost about $1,000 per man. If this estimate is true, as I suppose it to be, approximately, the expense to the Government in keeping troops in this country is about $2,000,000, and the expense to the Government for the Indian service of that same year was less than $200,000. The two are very disproportionate, when it is considered that the Indians were not hostile.

Mr. ALBRIGHT. Could all these tribes be put upon these four reservations?

Major POWELL. Yes. What I speak of as a tribe is one of those land divisions.

Mr. ALBRIGHT. The Indians are sufficiently homogeneous to let them live together?

Major POWELL. I should have no hesitancy in saying so.

WAR DEPARTMENT, SURGEON-GENERAL'S OFFICE, Washington, D., C., January 14, 1874.

SIR: I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 12th instant, concerning the number and pay of civilian employés and detailed enlisted men as reported to you in the letter from this Office of the 10th instant. In reply I have to inform you that the letter of January 10 included the number and "aggregate" pay per month of the entire Medical Department of the Army; not of those employed in the Surgeon General's Office in this city only. The cost per man of each of the classes named in that letter is as follows:

That of enlisted men employed in this city on extra duty varies with the term of enlistment, and the year thereof in which they are serving, on account of the difference in additional and retained pay and clothing allowance. The average cost per man of this class for the month of December was $102.13.

That of hospital-stewards on extra duty in medical directors' offices, &c., and cooks and nurses in post-hospitals cannot be computed, as shown in the letter of January 10.

That of civilian clerks, &c., in the Surgeon-General's Office is as follows: 1 chief clerk, at $2,000 per annum; 1 clerk of class 3, at $1,600 per annum; 2 clerks of class 2, at $1,400 per annum; 8 clerks of class 1, at $1,200 per annum; 1 messenger, at $840 per annum; and 1 laborer, at $720 per annum.

That of physicians employed under contract at various stations throughout the country varies from $20 to $150 per month, according to the station and the duties required of them. The average of their pay per month is $113.68.

That of the remaining civil employés is as follows: Apothecaries: 1 at $125 and 1 at $100-average, $112.50; engineer, $100; carpenter, $100; engraver, $100; photographer, $100; clerks, (in purveying depots,

&c.,) from $75 to $150-average, $131.92; messengers, (in medical directors' offices, &c.,) one at $15 and one at $50-average, $32.50; laborers, (in purveying depots, &c.,) from $45 to $70-average, $53.66; packers, (in purveying depots,) from $30 to $100-average, $73.75 per month. Very respectfully, your obedient servant, J. K. BARNES,

Hon. JOHN COBURN,

Chairman Committee on Military Affairs,

Surgeon-General.

House of Representatives.

WASHINGTON, D. C. January 15, 1874.

G. W. INGALLS appeared before the committee, in response to its invitation, and was examined as follows:

By the CHAIRMAN:

Question. State what connection you have with the Government oflicially.

Answer. I am agent of the Piute Indians.

Question. How long have you been connected with the Indian Department?

Answer. Eighteen months.

Question. State to what extent your acquaintance with the Indian tribes goes.

Answer. My experience until within the last eight months was principally with the Piutes. Since then I have been especially commissioned by the Secretary of the Interior to visit other tribes.

Question. What duties have you been doing and what other tribes have you seen?

Answer. I have been acting as a special Indian commissioner for the purpose of examining into the condition of Indians in Idaho, Utah, Nevada, Arizona, and Southeastern California, in explaining to them, fully, the reservation policy of the Government, and, as far as practicable, in taking a census of those Indians. I have a summary of that census, (showing it to the committee.) Major J. W. Powell was associated with me in this commission-work.

These several tribes have been carried on the books of the Department and are now reported to be in the neighborhood of 30,000 Indians. But, by this census, we show that their number does not exceed 10,500 Indians in the entire territory which we have covered, embracing Idaho, Utah, Northern Arizona, (about a quarter of Arizona) Southeastern California, and Nevada.

By Mr. NESMITH:

Question. How was that census taken; by actual count?

Answer. Yes. We visited every band where we did not find them at their accustomed places of living, and we would send out an assistant commissioner and invite several tribes to meet us at some point, and would remain there from one to ten days for the band or tribe to come in. We would make arrangements to subsist those bands that came from a distance, and would thereby hold them in council with us as long as desired.

Question. Were there not a good many smaller parties scattered over the country, which you did not meet?

Answer. In that case we took the leading men of the tribes, and, as we had presents for the Indians, we would ask how many of their tribe they had left at home, in order to send presents to them, and the number absent from any tribe hardly ever exceeded a dozen or fifteen. Question. Have you got an enumeration of the Apaches there? Answer. No; we did not go as far south as the Apache country. Question. Have you got the enumeration of the Nez Percés ? Answer. Yes, sir; though we did not visit them. We got that through General Shanks on our arrival at Salt Lake City. Question. How far down into Idaho did you go?

Answer. I went up just north of Fort Hall.

Question. You did not go to Boise City and through that country? Answer. No, sir. We were invited to visit especially the northwestern bands of Shoshones, whose range is southeast of that.

Question. And you were not west of that mountain-range which divides Idaho?

Answer. No, sir. In fact I did not take the complete census of the Indians of Northern Idaho. That was under the jurisdiction of General Shanks's commission.

By the CHAIRMAN :

Question. State what the disposition of these Indians is toward the whites, as to their making depredations on whites, or as to their having a spirit of hostility or mischief toward them.

Answer. In the country which we visited we found the Indians, without exception, peaceably disposed toward the whites.

Question. Did you ascertain whether that was in consequence of the presence of military power, or whether it is the disposition of the Indians to be friendly without that?

Answer. I think it is very largely to be attributed to the effect of subjugation arising from military force in years past, (previous to the last ten years,) and to the combined action of the United States authorities and of the Mormons. The Mormons have had jurisdiction over a large part of that country which we traveled. At present, the influence of the Mormons is more circumscribed.

Question. My question applied to the present presence of military force, and whether Indians are peaceable now, because they have to be, in the presence of military force?

Answer. No, sir. I think they were completely subdued, (in years past,) and it is on account of the kind treatment they are now receiving at the hands of the Government and from some of the whites who surround them, without any influence whatever from the military power.

By Mr. GUNCKEL:

Question. What, in your opinion, would be the effect of a partial or total withdrawal of United States troops ?

Answer. I think it would be a very pleasant and a very profitable one to the Indians.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Question. Would they be overrun by white marauders and intruders, and suffer in consequence of that?

Answer. I think they would be, unless the several reservations located in that country referred to were properly supplied with good, efficient men, not only as agents, but with subordinates, such as farmers, blacksmith, miller, carpenter, physician, teachers, and assistants, all men

of good morals, true men, who are engaged in the work from their heart. Such a force, I think, would be sufficient to control any outside marauders.

By Mr. DONNAN:

Question. What would be the effect of the withdrawal of the troops, on white settlements, as to their safety against Indians?

Answer. I think the settlements would be perfectly safe. I gather this opinion from an intimate conference with various settlers in different places in Nevada, Utah, Arizona, and Idaho. When I speak of a conference with settlers, I refer to the better portion of settlers. I found exceptions to that sentiment with men who are engaged in liquor traffic, and men who are in there for a short time without any permanent occupation, or those who are interested in securing Government contracts, and in the ruder class of society which is usually found in a border country.

Mr. GUNCKEL. If I understand you, then, in your opinion, in all that territory the presence of United States troops is not necessary to protect the Indians from the whites, or the whites from the Indians?

Answer. That is my candid opinion. I conversed, while in Nevada, with several members of the Nevada legislature, with merchants, with men of property, rancheros, and stock-raisers, and I base my opinion on these conversations in stating that there is not any necessity for military, and they confirmed me in the opinion, which I had already formed, that the influence of troops among the Indians was demoralizing, and that there was more frequent troubles arising between the Indians and the settlers when the troops were in their midst, than there are at present. There are but very few troops around the large body of those Indians.

By Mr. ALBRIGHT:

Question. Did those Indians with whom you had conferences make complaints of bad treatment from any source or quarter which they wanted your influence to redress?

Answer. Yes, sir. The ill-usage which they complained of was from some of the unprincipled settlers who surrounded them. Most of those Indians, you will understand, are off reservations, and I think that this condition of affairs will continue so long as they remain off reservations. The CHAIRMAN. What would you advise to be done with those Indians ?

Answer. That they should be gathered into four different reservatios: the Fort Hall reservation, the Uintah Valley reservation, the Pah Ute reservation, and the Malheur reservation.

By Mr. ALBRIGHT :

Question. In regard to the complaints and grievances which the Indians have against the white settlers, how would you propose to give them redress? In what way would you right the wrongs of these Indians?

Answer. I cannot say that there can be any redress, unless you withdraw them from their present surroundings and place them on reserva. tions. I see no other hope for them whatever. Repeated complaints come to me from those Indians begging me to let them hold their present little patches of land which they were then cultivating, and to keep the whites from selling liquor to their men and from selling foolish and useless things to them. They said that when those of their number who worked, got liquor and powder, they would come into their camps debased and drunk, and that they would not work for some time, and,

while intoxicated, for a mere pittance they would dispose of all their lands and property.

Question. If you got the Indians on reservations, by what means would you keep them in there?

Answer. By giving them such articles as would induce them to remain on reservations, in the way of food, clothing, implements of agriculture, mechanical implements, and other things to employ their time. Our instructions authorized us to promise these Indians all of these different inducements if they would remain on reservations, and I think that, with kind treatment on the part of the agents and assistants, they would remain there without any trouble. In fact, the general assent of most of the Indians, whom we visited, was secured, to go on reservations just as soon as the Government was ready to make good those promises, though some of them would have to go from three hundred to four hundred miles from their present homes. When we asked them if they would not give up their present nomadic life and follow an agricultural life, they refused at first, but after we remained and labored with them from three days to a week, we did finally receive their assent. The Indians admitted that they could not hold on to their lands; that they could not get uniform kind treatment from the whites, and that, unless they are better protected by the Government, they could not stay there. The matter of going on reservations was one of faith with them. We assured them that they would be protected there, and they were willing to accept that promise.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Question. State whether or not your attention has been called to the military posts in that region, which you visited, and, if so, whether any of these posts, by concentrating Indians on these reservations, would be useless, so far as protecting either whites or Indians is concerned?

Answer. (Referring to map.) I believe the presence of troops at Fort Bridger and Fort Hall is unnecessary.

Question. What forts or posts would, by the removal of the Indians, be remote from them?

Answer. None of them very remote.

Question. So that the posts and military forts are now located at such places as that they would have to be continued, even if the Indians were concentrated on these reservations?

Answer. So far as the Indians are concerned there would be no necessity for Fort Beaver, Camp Douglas, or Fort Bridger. They would be remote, if the Indians were concentrated on the reservations referred to. Question. Are there any other posts or forts which would be remote from them?

Answer. No, sir; not within the border which I have described.

Mr. DONNAN. If the military posts there are unnecessary for the protection of the whites against the Indians, what is the occasion for the continuance of those military posts?

Answer. I see no necessity for Fort Bridger. There is a camp located in the vicinity of the eastern band of Shoshones, and there is, I think, but little necessity for its existence. I conferred with the Indians, and also with some of the white people from their vicinity.

Mr. NESMITH. Are the white people anxious to have the forts removed?

Answer. The better class of them are. The better class of people, the honest, intelligent, moral class, are indifferent to the existence of forts and troops in their vicinity, but the majority of the people there,