Mr. LILIENTHAL. May I interrupt, Senator? There is a second. part of that question. I confess I have forgotten what it was now, but there was a second part.

Senator MCKELLAR. If you remember it, later on you can put it into

the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Perhaps it would be better to have the reporter read it.

(Reporter reads question of Senator McKellar.)

Mr. LILIENTHAL. As to the second part of the question: Mr. Warren, when he first came into office, did disagree with our interpretation of the scope of the Comptroller General's administrative powers; that is to say, his jurisdiction to make decisions in respect to expenditures that related not to legality, but to the administrative wisdom or judgment of expenditures.

Upon full discussion of that, Mr. Warren agreed that administrative decisions should be made by those who are held responsible for them, by the Congress, to wit, the board of directors of the TVA, and not by the General Accounting Office.

And an amendment to the law to make that perfectly clear was passed by the Congress.

Senator MCKELLAR. Shall I proceed now?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Yes.

Senator MCKELLAR. I read further from your biography, from where I left off:

Practicing law alone after 1923, in his own right he became special counsel for the city of Chicago in the famous telephone-rate controversy which ultimately resulted in the United States Supreme Court's ordering a refund of $20,000,000 overcharge to telephone subscribers. From 1926 to 1931 he also edited the Public Utilities and Carriers Service for Chicago's Commerce Clearing House. Most of the sustomers of this legal service were members of the power trust or their attorneys, and the service gave them up-to-date digests of legislative and court decisions affecting their operations.

Lilienthal's knowledge of the utilities led Governor Philip La Follette to ask him to become a member of the Wisconsin Public Service Commission in 1931. In this capacity Lilienthal reorganized the Commission and revised the public utilities statutes of Wisconsin in such a way that they became the model for half a dozen other states. His work came to the attention of President Roosevelt, and in 1933, after the Tennessee Valley Authority project, sponsored by Senator Norris, had been authorized by Congress, Lilienthal was chosen one of the TVA's three co-directors. (Lilienthal attirbutes the success of the TVA to its sponsor, former Senator George W. Norris: "Without him there would be no TVA; his statesmanship and integrity are deeply engraved upon every chapter of TVA's legislative history)".

I want to ask you: Does it take money to build dams, Mr. Lilienthal? Or do you know anything about building dams? You are not an engineer, as I believe you testified frequently.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. As to the first question, it does take money to build dams. And I know something about the management problems of building dams. And I am not an engineer.

Senator MCKELLAR. You are not an engineer. I want to ask you: Do you not know that every dollar that went into the TVA, directly or indirectly-and when I say "directly or indirectly," I mean whether we got the President to allot it out of other funds, like the WA and the PWA funds, or whether it was appropriated directly-that every dollar of that money secured by a very close vote on amendments introduced by me in the United States Senate?

Now, just answer the question "Yes" or "No," and then you may explain any way you want to. Is that true or not?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I do not know whether it is true.

Senator MCKELLAR. You do not know whether it is true. In other words, you do not know where the money came from?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. No; I did not say that.

Senator MCKELLAR. Well, where did the money come from?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. You asked me a question about a long legislative history, and I do not purport to have the answer to every one of those questions. If the purport of the question was: Has Senator McKellar, the Dean of the Senate, been enormously helpful in securing appropriations for these structures in the Tennessee Valley, the answer is emphatically: Indeed he has.

Senator MCKELLAR. Let me ask you again: Do you not know of your own knowledge-because you were here lobbying in the city of Memphis, against some of these dams at one time-do you not know that the House of Representatives time and again refused to appropriate this money?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Yes, I do.

Senator MCKELLAR. And that the Senate of the United States passed it, in the Appropriations Committee of which I was a member at the time, by a one-majority? And was that not true during the entire building of these dams? And was it not the only way that the money was secured for the building of these dams through these very close votes?

And do you not know about it? Because you were here at the time lobbying against some of the dams as well as lobbying for some of the dams?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Well, Senator, let us divide the question.
Senator MCKELLAR. Yes; all right.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I deny that I was here lobbying against or for the dams. As to the question about some of these appropriations having lost in the House and then being restored in the Senate, and restored in the Senate largely, if not chiefly because of your influence and intense efforts in that respect, the answer is: emphatically yes. The reason I had difficulty with your first question is that you asked me a question that calls for a knowledge of 131⁄2 years of legislative history that I do not have in such detail. But it happened several times.

Senator MCKELLAR. Now, I want to ask you if it is not true-Mr. LILIENTHAL. There is no disposition, and there never has been any disposition, to be anything niggardly in crediting to you the important part you had in securing these appropriations. If that is the implication back of your question, I want to clear that up without any ambiguity at all.

Senator MCKELLAR. I just want to read you here what you said in this biography that you have endorsed up to date.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. By the way, Senator, did it say in there "power

trust"?

Senator MCKELLAR. No. Wait just a minute:

Much of TVA's success, too, lies in its nonpolitical administration. TVA has full control over its personnel, hiring on a merit system of its own, and since it gives no civil service protection to employees, each man must continue to make good in order to hold his job. All political activities except voting are absolutely

forbidden for TVA employees, who can't even take part in municipal policies. "TVA if politically managed could become a curse to this Valley," says Lilienthal. Mr. LILIENTHAL. That is certainly true.

Senator McKELLAR. To continue:

Senator McKellar of Tennessee

this is in your biography, 1944. I believe the newspapers, apparently at your instance, certainly in an attempt to aid you, have talked about a feud between you and me. Mr. Lilienthal, surely-talking about a feud-you and I have been friendly the entire time you have been here. The only feud that has ever existed between us was when I introduced a bill to force you, in connection with TVA at the time, you being the one man that had any control in the TVA at the time, to force you to pay your receipts into the Treasury of the United States, like every other single activity of the Government of the Untied States. Now, that is the only difference that we have had, and I am going to show it to you in just a minute.

But here is your attack on me:

Senator McKellar of Tennessee apparently differs on this last point. In the winter of 1941-42 with TVA's power program rapidly expanding to meet 'defense needs, Lilienthal decided to build Douglas Dam to get another 100,000 kilowatts of power for aluminum expansion in a hurry. The land that was to be flooded was 12,000 acres owned mostly by influential canning interests, McKellar's friends-

I stumble on that. Who is indulging in feuding, when you put in your own biography:

McKellar's friends and the Senator blocked the dam for 2 months before giving in. His surrender was only temporary. In May 1942 he tried to "attach a dog collar for TVA" to an appropriation bill that would abolish TVA's revolving fund and make it turn to Congress for every penny, although Lilienthal announced that the effect would be to take TVA out of the war. In March 1944 the Senator added to the TVA portion of the independent office appropriation bill 16 "ripper" amendments that would bring the Government's corporation "under his own thumb."

Mr. Lilienthal, I asked you, within less than a year, I think about a year ago and I will get it, to be exact-I asked you this question, on June 20, 1946, this past year:

Senator MCKELLAR. I am not referring to that, because my recollection is I do not recall whether I had ever recommended anyone to the TVA. I do not recall it. If it is true and I am quite sure it is not-it was not political. And yet, this particular gentleman who spoke to me about it said my only purpose was to introduce politics in the TVA. Nothing is further from my purpose. I am a great believer in letting well enough alone, because as far as I know, during years that the TVA has operated in its present form, if there has been politics against me in the TVA, I do not know anything about it. I am completely ignorant of it. Is that not true, Senator Green?

Senator GREEN. Very true.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Senator, I know of not a single instance.

Did you tell the truth when you made that statement?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Yes, I did. I do not know why you now should raise any question about it.

Senator MCKELLAR. Because in your biography you are denouncing me as trying to put the TVA under my thumb. You do not believe that, do you?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Senator

You do not believe I am

Senator MCKELLAR. Wait one moment. trying to put the TVA under my thumb, do you?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Senator, ever since we had our first meeting on this subject, in 1933, we have understood each other very well. Senator MCKELLAR. I want to ask you to answer the question "Yes" or "No".

Mr. LILIENTHAL. No.

Senator MCKELLAR. Do you believe that I have ever tried in any way, in the slightest way, to put the TVA under my thumb politically or in any other way? Do you not know that the only thing I have ever done was to seek to build those dams in my State, where they seem to me so necessary to my State and the country? Do you not know that?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Senator, the question of a man's motives is something I never try to interpret. All I know is that TVA has continued to try to operate under this law, and not in response to any kind of― any other influences.

Senator MCKELLAR. I want to ask you to tell me again-I am asking it the second time: Do you believe or do you think or do you know that I have ever in the slightest way tried to influence politically or put the TVA under my thumb in any way whatsoever?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Well, Senator, if you insist

Senator MCKELLAR. I insist. I want an answer "yes" or "no," and then you can explain all you wish.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I am not going to answer a question about your purposes, but I must say that your methods of seeking to get me to agree with viewpoints I did not agree with have been pretty

strenuous.

I would like to recall, Senator-I must recall-though I do not like to, and I hope it is not relevant-that in speeches on the floor of the Senate and in hearings you have used very unkind and very ungenerous remarks about me that would be calculated to intimidate a less stubborn fellow than I am.

What your purpose was, I do not know. There were times when there were disagreements, honest disagreements, between us. I was very sorry, and I pointed out to you that I wished you would not use such violent expressions about me, because I really did not think you meant them that way. You just said that you have nothing but friendly feelings for me, and in spite of your highly personal attacks on me I have nothing but less friendly feelings toward you.

But the net effect of your attacks in these speeches, Senator, as you may be aware, is to give the impression that you are seeking to force a fellow who is trying to be independent and honest about these things to agree with your position in spite of his own convictions. That is the net effect of the method of attacking me personally on the floor of the Senate and elsewhere, where I am helpless to protect myself.

Senator MCKELLAR. Mr. Lilienthal, have you not testified directly to the contrary of what you are now saying?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. No.

Senator MCKELLAR. I want to read you from the record of the hearing of June 20, 1942, before the Appropriations Committee. I happened to be the chairman.

98078-47-7

In 1945, you were present before the committee, and I asked you a question, and I want to ask you that question now:

Did I ever recommend any human being to you or to your Authority, so far as you know, to hold any office in your organization, or any position in your organization?

And here is your answer:

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Senator, so far as I recall and I think I would recal-you have never urged the appointment of any individual.

Did you say that, or not?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I said that, and that is correct, and I should like

Senator MCKELLAR. Wait a moment.

The CHAIRMAN. I know that that is correct, and I want to thank you for that statement.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. If there are any statements, I believe they would be purely formal.

Is that correct?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. That is correct. The facts are that you have written letters of recommendation to TVA for, oh, say, I suppose, hundreds of people. And I do not construe it that there is anything inappropriate about that, especially as to those people of whom you had personal knowledge.

And that is what I regard as a formal recommendation. You have never, since our first meeting on this subject, urged the appointment of anyone.

Senator MCKELLAR. Of anyone. Now, there cannot be any doubt about that, can there?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I think our first meeting in 1933 cleared the air on that.

Senator MCKELLAR. You think that clears the air about that. Why would you put in your biography that statement, which is directly contrary to what you have just testified?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Now, let us see if I cannot get us straight on that. I have written things, and for those things I am responsible; and for my testimony. But for something you find—what is it— a publication?

Senator MCKELLAR. I will read the title again. I read it once or twice. It is the Current Biography of 1944, a biographical sketch, and it is almost entirely a quotation from you. It is called a biog raphy, but it looks a little like a panegyric, if I may so call it.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Those portions that you have read that are in quotation marks sound very much like-in fact, some of them I am quite sure are taken from something I have written some place. As to the rest of it, the responsibility for it is that of the author of that publication. I stand on the things that I have said or have testified to, and not on what someone else writes.

Senator McKELLAR. Mr. Lilienthal

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Current Biography digests articles in magazines and newspapers. So far as I know, it is not submitted to the victim at all. I believe it is not like Who's Who in that respect.

Senator MCKELLAR. Let me ask: Did this man come to you and get this?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. No; I think the practice is to digest these things from periodicals and magazine articles about the individual.