The Earl of Derby said, it had been insisted on that no proofs had been brought forward, and that no reasons had been given for the present motion. He did not conceive it to be necessary to state particular reasons for such a motion. The notoriety of the circumstances superseded the necessity of detail. It was said that a people with arms in their hands did not deserve any favour; but had not the conduct of administration fomented the discontents of the people of Ireland? Could the distress of the country be imputed entirely to accidental circumstances. Was it not rather the natural consequence of the profuse expenditure, and the accumulated debt which the administration had occasioned. He considered the cause of these disasters to be with ministers, and should therefore give his support to the motion. of complaint, he was convinced that | for the extraordinary nature of the war, the people would obtain their right, if and the desperate efforts of the enemy. they made their complaints known in a Perhaps it would have been as well to rely lawful and constitutional manner. But it for defence upon our wooden walls. He was not the proper way to solicit with thought that the minister should have cararms in their hands. Such was the man- ried the loyalty loan a little farther; for ner in which the Irish insisted upon the he was convinced that a great deal more redress of their grievances. He did not might have been subscribed which would view our situation on the dark side, which have prevented the present difficulties, some liked to contemplate. A change in and been of the utmost importance in indress had lately been introduced in that clining the enemy to pacific measures. If House, and some might wish to have a the country was really harassed and dis. crop administration. He should vote tressed in any thing like the manner desagainst the motion. cribed, he conceived it to be the duty of every Englishman to contribute his assistance to relieve it. He had a plan to suggest which he was convinced would be of great advantage; it might be considered absurd and quixotic, and he might be laughed at and ridiculed for havingthought of it; he would nevertheless submit it as it had occurred to his mind. He thought that every man ought to come forward and contribute a voluntary gift, to the extent of his ability, to the public exigency. He himself would subscribe 5,000l.; and, he thought there would ea sily be found a hundred thousand individuals, who would subscribe their 100%. each, so that upon a moderate computation 10 millions might be obtained. He proposed that this should be paid by instalments. For instance, he would commence on the 1st day of January 1798, and pay 500l. a month, so that in ten months he he should have paid the whole. Each subscriber to do the same, according to the sums respectively subscribed, even so low as 50l. The whole of this money to be subject to the control of parliament. Such a measure, if carried into execution, would convince the enemy of the spirit and resources of the country, and would counteract any impression which might be made on the French government to our disadvantage, by the desponding ideas of some as to our situation, or by the warm language of others on the conduct or mismanagement of our ministers. The Earl of Romney said, 'that for several months past, it had given him the greatest concern to hear persons on all sides, talk of the situation of the country in the most desponding manner. For his own part, he thought very differently of it, and was certain there was nothing wanted to restore it to its former strength and power, but active energy. He had argued on this head with many of his friends in vain, till at length he was obliged to tell them in a laughing way, "Well, enjoy the comfort of being ruined, if you will have it so." He nevertheless regretted the expressions used, with regard to our situation, as they were calculated to produce no good effect here, while they were received with pleasure on the other side of the water. He thought the situation of the country not worse than it had been at the end of last war. Our allies had lost, but we had gained in the contest, He did not see any cause of apprehension. With regard to the conduct there might have been some faults, but great allowance should be made The Earl of Moira said, that the mismanagement of ministers had brought us to our present lamentable situation, and they could not too soon be removed. The war had been misconducted, from the beginning, in the most shameful manner. The wealth and resources of the country had been lavishly expended in making conquests of distant settlements, when, instead thereof, the French should have been attacked with all our force nearer home. Earl Spencer said, that before ministers were blamed for the condition of the country, it was incumbent to show, that the war could have been avoided, or that more could have been done to obtain peace than ministers had done. He would not enter into an examination of military affairs; but our navy had never been more successful. The Earl of Carlisle said, that the finest opportunity of forcing the enemy to make peace had been lost by the conduct of the Admiralty, which had given very absurd orders to admiral Colpoys. Had we destroyed the Brest fleet, we should soon have got out of the war. It was certainly the fault of the Admiralty that we did not destroy that fleet; and this he would always maintain till he went to his tomb. The money in carrying on the very measures he had reprobated when out of place. At the end of the American war, violent clamours had been raised against the peace that was concluded, which time had proved to be ill-founded, and the per son who had been most forward in that clamour would probably have come into office as one of the most popular ministers that ever was in this country, but for the coalition with lord North, which then took place. With him, therefore, a change of men was not that panacea which some con sidered it to be. He was for a fundamental change of system. He was for a complete acknowledgment of past error. He was fora government, conducted without influence, and whoever were ministers, if they had integrity, honour, and purity, he was not doubtful of the result. What would their lordships' property long remain worth, when millions after millions were squandered in the most improvident manner? What would the noble lord's subscription of 5,000l. do, when such a floodgate was opened, and when every man in office had his hand in the public purse to spend as much as he thought proper? The term "good peace," was frequently used, but he wished it could be defined. He wished to know what we were fighting for? Was it Belgium? If it was, ask the people whether they would persevere in the war for such an object. Was it for any territorial possession? He wished it to be discussed what terms would constitute a good peace. When this was known, it might be possible to proceed. He could never consent to any peace that would infer public ignominy; and if the enemy were to insist on any such conditions, it would unite every man in the country to resist their pretensions. The Marquis of Lansdown thought the Admiralty had been extremely negligent of their duty. He confessed he had no confidence in a mere change of men. He considered one punishment of a minister where it was merited, of infinitely greater public advantage than any change that could take place. He had formed this opinion both on principle and practice. He was for a strong executive and a vigilant independent legislature, mutually checking each other, and in this balance he conceived liberty to consist. Lord Grenville said, that the natural history of the changes that had taken part for England to take in the war had place from the removal of sir Robert been properly performed. Every effort Walpole to the present day, had proved had been made, and every success obthe inefficacy of changes of men. tained, regarding this as a naval and coloRobert was removed by popular clamour nial war. When the exertions of the goat the time he was carrying that admira- vernment were turned towards the contible sheme, the sinking fund, into execu nent, when all the troops our small tion, and the country suffered by his military establishment could afford were removal. The consequence of that sent to the Netherlands, then ministers change was, his successors plunged the were blamed for not confining their exernation into a Spanish and a French war, tions to the navy and the colonies, which and dilapidated the sinking fund. At it was said were the proper objects of the close of the seven years war, a change Great Britain in a war. Of late, ministers, also took place, and the new minister in compliance with the public voice, had squandered 75 millions of the public declined sending troops to the continent; Sir ment. He only desired the present system should be changed for a constitutional system. And he would contend for a constitutional government, even though it was the fashion for ministers to insinuate, that those who recommended any change were Jacobins. He denied having any Jacobin principles about him, and asserted, that he had always advised ministers against Jacobin principles, because he was convinced they went to a community of goods, and every absurd and pernicious degree of equality. He did not believe there were many Jacobins in principle in this country; and he knew of no such practical Jacobins as his majesty's ministers. They had banished gold and silver from London, at the time when they began to be plentiful in Paris; and they had taken up the paper system when France had laid it down. Forced loans, military force, and every Jacobin project they had adopted as soon as France rejected them. They pursued a line of conduct perfectly agreeable to all Jacobins, and well calculated to promote their objects. He thought the immortal jury of 1794 had sufficiently exposed the falsehood of the pretended Jacobin plots. To the noble conduct of that jury, he did not know how many of their lordships were now indebted for the possession of their lives and fortunes. It was that jury which defeated the Robespierian system, which was attempted to be established in this country. they had turned all their attention to the navy and colonies, and still they were blamed, even though they had been so successful. The noble marquis had allowed, that changes of ministers, made by popular clamour, had not always been calculated for the public good, and he had instanced the case of sir Robert Walpole; that change, however, was not less calculated for the public good than the present. But the noble marquis says, it is not a change of men, but an entire change of the principle and system of the government which he desires. A change in our system of government would throw the country into total confusion. Were not their lordships convinced of the danger of French principles, from which ministers had preserved the country? From such a change he was convinced the whole nation would recoil. It had been asked, for what was the war carried on? It was not for this or that province -it was, whether the French should possess the whole of the maritime coast of the continent opposite to this country. That was the present object. Another was, the haughty manner in which they had treated our overtures for peace. They had called for our terms, which they had rejected without offering any on their part. No minister had ever been more ignominiously treated than our's had been. His lordship said he had often heard professions of unanimity when the country was insulted; but he never had received the support of those who made such professions. He condemned the desponding language held respecting our finances, and contended that our resources were ample and abundant. The Marquis of Lansdown was not surprised that the French, in the late negotiation, had shown some haughtiness. The French were men with natural feelings, and must remember and resent the abusive language ministers had used respecting them. Were we to wonder that the French entered on the negotiation with coldness and distrust, when not only the former language of ministers, but every circumstance attending the negotiation itself, gave them cause to suspect our sincerity? He would not suffer an imputation of Jacobinism to be cast on him, by the noble lord, when that noble lord must know that by a recommendation of a change of system, he meant nothing like Jacobinism. He denied having recommended a change of govern[VOL. XXXIII.] The Duke of Bedford said, he would support the necessity of a change of system in spite of the calumnies which he knew he should incur. It was his object to chace corruption from senates, and despotic principles from the councils of kings. The danger of French principles was held out. But, good God! was it the way, to guard against French principles, to ruin our own country? It had often been said that ministers had no interest in continuing the war. It might as well be said, that it never was the interest of individuals to commit errors. Ministers might feel an individual interest in continuing that system with which their power was connected. The state of the finances was alarming in the highest degree, but the danger could only be remedied by meeting it fairly. Were a peace now to take place, taxes to the amount of two millions and a half would be necessary to cover the expenses already incurred. He should give his assent to the motion. [0] The House divided: Contents, 15; Proxies, 2-17. Not-Contents, 86; Proxies, 18-104. cause. The people of England, saw with infinite mortification, one of the largest armaments of the present age equipped in the port of Brest for the invasion of IreDebate on Colonel Wood's Motion for land, remain upon her coast near three appointing a Board of Naval and Military weeks unmolested, and afterwards retura Officers to inquire into the Defensive State home without the smallest obstruction of the Country.] March 28. Colonel Wood and by the kind interposition of Provi said, that under the present state of dence that country had been preserved anxiety and uncertainty in which the coun- from a calamity, the extent of which no try remained upon a subject of the first man could calculate. It was painful to importance, it seemed to be the unani- recollect the defenceless situation in which mous opinion of every gentleman with Ireland continued, not only during the whom he had conversed upon the subject, whole of the time the enemy was upon that the public had not only an undoubted the coasts, but for some considerable peright to every information which ministers riod afterwards, without any adequate could give, consistent with safety, but force or supplies of artillery, arms, or that the House was the only proper chan- stores; and this for months after the mi nel through which such information could nister had announced to this House, not either be asked or obtained. As it was merely the preparations of the enemy, disgraceful for a country to be alarmed but their actual destination against that without cause, so was it equally discre- country. With such evidence of miscon ditable, for a great country like England duct and inattention to the safety of Ireto remain in a state of inactivity, at a time land, or else of most unparalleled misforwhen every possible exertion was required, tune in their plans for the security of that to extricate her from her difficulties. He country, could gentlemen be at any loss begged the House for a moment to consi- to account for the late universal alarm der the importance of the subject to which which prevailed in England, upon the their attention was called-in his opinion, near approach of a similar visit, destined one of the greatest magnitude that could against the coasts of this island? Or possibly occupy the deliberations of a were any so very unreasonable as to exgreat and independent nation; for when- pect, that by some magical power, inatever, in the opinion of the public, the se- tention to the security of Ireland, would curity of the country against foreign in- beget confidence and reliance on their vaders became a matter of doubt or un- greater vigilance and attention towards certainty, till such time as the grounds of the safety of England? The right hon. such an opinion was maturely investigated secretary (Mr. Dundas) had asserted, that and removed, all discussion relative to in- the late alarm was entirely unfoundedternal regulations or improvements ap- and so far he was willing to agree with peared to him to be frivolous and unim- him, that it was carried to a height which portant. He asked gentlemen, to what neither our situation nor circumstances cause they believed the late universal could possibly justify-but was that right alarm to have been occasioned, which had hon. gentleman to be informed, that an unsettled public credit, and which would alarm spreads like a contagion, to which have buried in one general ruin the Bank no man could prescribe bounds? Under of England, had not the minister inter- such circumstances, it was not the asserposed a violent stretch of prerogative, by tions of any man that could possibly sawhich it had received a temporary reprieve tisfy the public ministers, who, in case from destruction? It was neither the of any misfortune, must be deeply implithreats of invasion, nor yet any exagge-cated in responsibility: their reason and rated accounts of the preparations of the enemy, that could have produced such an effect for every man was satisfied that our own strength and resources were such, that if those to whom the safety of the country was entrusted did their duty, every attempt of an enemy must ultimately terminate in their disgrace and destruc tion. : In his opinion, the occasion of the alarm was from a very different understandings must be convinced, that not only ministers have themselves been vigilant, but that they have consulted those able and experienced naval and military officers on whom the country rely; and that with their advice some regular plan has been adopted for the general defence of the country.-Since the late alarm, what farther proofs had ministers given of their attention to the security of [198 the country? Have depots of arms and it would be possible to assemble such a stores been established in different parts, respectable centrical army as was absoby means of which the people might be lutely necessary for the protection of the armed, and unite with the military in the capital and its dependencies. It had been event of a descent, in repelling the in- suggested, that a general array of the peovaders? Have they made any progress ple able to carry arms upon the sea coasts, towards assembling a strong and respect- who, for two or three hours each week, able centrical army for the protection of should be accustomed to military exerthe capital, the rivers Thames and Med- cise, would be the readiest economical way, without depending upon the junc- | mode of defence. Let peace come when tion of distant detached corps, which it might, undoubtedly some more econooften may be difficult, and at some times mical plan than the present for protecting impossible? Have our ships or fleets been the country must be devised, and none so stationed off the enemies ports, where we proper as the inhabitants to defend themunderstand preparations have been mak- selves and their property. At an early ing, so as to intercept their supplies and period of the Revolution ministers sought to embarrass their operations? Has any for men of abilities in military science, provision been made for the protection of without attending either to birth or former this great city, and for the support of the situation; and from a selection of such civil magistrates in the event of its being | men formed a military council, by whom found necessary to move the troops to- the whole of their operations were planned wards the capital ? On the contrary, have and directed, and to whom were chiefly not many of the most respectable inhabi- to be attributed those brilliant successes tants of this great city tendered their ser- which had astonished Europe. In 1785, vices to government without any expense when plans for the defence of the coasts, to the nation, and which, although highly | and for the protection of our dockyards, approved of and commended, yet near came before parliament, a board, comtwo months have elapsed, and not one posed of the principal naval and military measure has been adopted likely to for- officers, was proposed as the most fit for ward so desirable an association? Have the consideration of that subject, and was not the number of foreigners been per- readily acceded to by the present chanmitted to increase beyond the bounds of cellor of the exchequer.* It was at that prudence and discretion? Those respect time stated, that in times of alarm simiable nobility and clergy of France, who lar measures had been resorted to; and have suffered so nobly in the cause of their particularly in the reign of Elizabeth, religion and their king, he trusted, would during the time of the famous armada. ever meet in this country with that de- She assembled a council of the united gree of hospitality to which their suffer- wisdom of her kingdom, requiring from ings gave them every claim; but if under this council a plan of defence suited for the respectable name of this description that occasion. In the present situation of of men, we admitted into our bosoms public affairs, it did not appear to him some of the most abandoned villains from that a wiser plan could be thought of. the school of Robespierre, we should in He should therefore beg leave to move, such case deservedly suffer for weakness "That an humble Address be presented and folly. As a proof of the vigilance of to his majesty, entreating his majesty to ministers, the right hon. gentleman had be graciously pleased to appoint a board told us, on a former occasion, that we had of naval and military officers, under the at present upwards of a 100,000 men in direction of his royal highness the comarms, and should soon have double this mander in chief, to take into consideranumber; alluding doubtless, to his ex- tion the measures which have already been pectations from the supplementary militia adopted for the security and defence of and provisional cavalry; but if from the the country, and to consult and determine first 100,000 be deducted, the troops sta- upon any other measures, which may aptioned in Scotland, those in the interior pear to them to be expedient to adopt, in and western counties of England, those the present situation of public affairs, so about the metropolis, and for the garrisons as thereby to dissipate and remove every of Portsmouth, Plymouth, Jersey, and unfounded alarm respecting the security Guernsey, and with the remainder, it be of the country." attempted to protect an extent of coast of upwards of 600 miles, he would ask, how *See Vol. 25, p. 387. |