INCREASE FOR COMPUTER SERVICES

Mr. FAZIO. The only increases are for computer services and you are making a number of other savings, so that the net non-personnel increase is $20,500? I really can't find anything to nitpick, Mr. Chairman. It looks good to me.

However, Mr. Murtha made a proposal that when we do your portrait for the Ways and Means Committee, we use this size frame back here. I would be happy to write that into the report language. Mr. MURTHA. Anything the Chairman wants. If he wants the whole wall, we can do it.

Mr. FAZIO. We can do a mural this time.

Mr. ROSTENKOWSKI. Mr. Chairman, I urge you to favorably consider our recommendations. If you need me for no further discussion, I will be glad to withdraw.

Mr. FAZIO. We might have a question or two for the staff. We won't beat up on them in your absence.

RESPONSIBILITY OF THE IRS

Mr. LEWIS. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Chairman a question.

Vic and I, Mr. Chairman, have been friends for years. We believe in good government and he has assured me you have similar attitudes. I would like to, as an aside, raise a point that maybe we can discuss more informally at another time.

For the record, in January of 1984, in a letter to the subcommittee, your Chief of Staff, Mr. Brockway, indicated the responsibility of the IRS. I may be missing something on the floor, but from time to time when that bill comes to the floor that appropriates funds for the IRS, there have been amendments around that would specifically, at least, suggest to the IRS that they could be more tactful in their dealings with the average citizen in their lust for funds. It has been suggested and I wouldn't want to indicate directly that any of our staff would ever lobby on the Floor. But, it has been suggested that maybe they lean towards opposing amendments directing the IRS to be more tactful. I just bring it to your attention at this point in time. And hope we could discuss this in more detail at another time.

Mr. ROSTENKOWSKI. Let me make this observation. On numerous occasions we have suggested a larger staff for the IRS because compliance is down. I think they are presently at their lowest point in audit coverage. Any time there is suggestion that we increase the amount of IRS appropriations or the number of IRS employees, it is very severely defeated on the floor of the House of Representatives.

I think that we have a problem and on every occasion I have talked to the Commissioner I have raised the point, formally and informally, that it is a delicate area and people genuinely become irritated, and they focus on me because of the association we have and the jurisdiction that we have.

REVENUE LOSS

Mr. FAZIO. It is a hundred billion dollars a year in uncollected revenue due us? Audits are down from five percent to one percent of all returns?

Mr. BROCKWAY. It is something like one and a half percent audit coverage right now.

Mr. MYERS. Total audits or random audits?

Mr. BROCKWAY. That is total. For large corporations, the IRS will typically audit all of them, but for regular taxpayers, it is very low right now. It has been dropping down steadily. First, there are limits on personnel; second, there are more taxpayers; and third, there are many more complicated returns involving more complicated transactions to audit.

AUDIT CERTAIN LEVELS OF INCOME

Mr. LEWIS. I don't know, before you became the Chairman, but somewhere the Congress directed the IRS to, on a random basis, audit over a three year period certain levels of income through the process. Before I came to the Congress, I had the honor of being so designated at random. I am not sure if the average citizen has had that experience, but I remember spending a couple of thousand dollars for my CPA and it only made a $25 difference. People obviously are very, very sensitive to this. I just raise it because I want you to know I am interested.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. FAZIO. Mr. Myers?

Mr. Murtha, do you have any questions?

Mr. MURTHA. No questions for the Chairman.

Mr. FAZIO. Mrs. Boggs?

Mrs. BOGGS. No questions.

Mr. FAZIO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

USE OF COMPUTER SERVICE FUNDS

David, could you tell us what you are going to do with the $306,000 requested for computer services?

Mr. BROCKWAY. We use the computer services for revenue estimates.

Mr. FAZIO. People are going to be asking for more and more estimates?

Mr. BROCKWAY. That's correct.

Mr. FAZIO. Do you use HIS and CBO?

Mr. BROCKWAY. We generally use a Treasury computer for which we pay a charge. On our word processing system, which was installed a year ago, we have had a lot of support from HIS.

Mr. FAZIO. Basically, this is cost of reimbursement for the Treasury?

Mr. BROCKWAY. A good part of it is computer time.

Mr. FAZIO. I don't think there are any other questions.

Mr. Conte has submitted a question for the record for you to respond to.

[The question and response follow:]

QUESTION FOR THE RECORD FROM MR. CONTE

Question. Mr. Brockway, in a January 19, 1984 letter to this subcommittee, you mentioned the joint committee's overall administrative oversight responsibility of the Intermal Revenue Service. What does that oversight entail?

I ask that because at times in the past when our committee has brought the Treasury-Postal Service appropriations bill to the House floor, and amendments have been offered dealing with the IRS, staff of the joint committee have been present on the floor. I wouldn't want to accuse them of lobbying to protect the IRS from what might be considered restrictive amendments, since that would be against the House rule prohibiting such staff activity on the floor,' but let's just say they have been somewhat defensive for the IRS. Is that considered part of the joint committee's oversight responsibility?

Perhaps you could urge them to be a bit more subtle in the future. Would you comment on that?

Response. Mr. Conte, the primary responsibility of the staff of the Joint Committee on Taxation is to provide staff support to the Congress and the two tax-writing committees in connection with substantive tax legislation, and to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in connection with its consideration of tax treaties. In addition, since the establishment of the Joint Committee by the Revenue Act of 1926, a major responsibility of the Committee and its staff has been oversight of the administration of the Federal tax laws by the Treasury Department and the Internal Revenue Service.

The Joint Committee was originally established as the successor to a select committee in the Senate which had performed oversight functions over IRS operations. That committee itself suggested the need for a procedure by which the Congress could be better advised as to the systems and methods employed in the administration of the tax laws, with a view to needs for legislation, simplification, and clarification of administration. Accordingly, the Congress established a permanent joint committee with statutory duties, including simplification and oversight functions, as now set forth in section 8022 of the Internal Revenue Code.

In recent years, the types of oversight issues on which the Joint Committee staff has provided technical assistance and analysis to Members have included the increased audit and litigation burdens resulting from the growth in syndicated tax shelters, the efforts of the IRS to deal with the underground economy and "tax protestors," the broadening of rules for exchanging of tax information between the IRS and other governmental units or agencies, and the IRS need for data processing equipment caused by increased reporting and compliance provisions enacted in 1981 and 1982. Other oversight matters have involved such issues as increased budget outlays as required for the awarding of attorney fees in certain tax cases, the Treasury/IRS regulations and rulings process, IRS taxpayer assistance programs, certain requirements enacted in 1982 as to the format of tax returns, and administrative summons procedures. In addition, the Joint Committee staff works with the GAO with respect to oversight studies of tax administration made by the GAO at the request of the staff or of the tax-writing or other committees.

In addition to substantive and oversight issues, in recent years other tax issues have arisen in the form of "riders" to Treasury appropriations bills and continuing appropriations resolutions. As you are aware, such issues have included the rules with respect to the tax-exempt status of private schools, charitable contributions to religious organizations in certain instances, and withholding on interest and dividends.

On all these issues, the Joint Committee staff stands ready to provide to any Member of Congress technical analysis and revenue or budget outlay estimates, where appropriate, on tax-related legislation, including the consideration of Treasury/IRS appropriation bills on the House floor.

The staff of the Joint Committee is aware that any assistance provided to Members on the House floor is limited to technical assistance. Since being appointed chief of staff in January 1983, I have not been aware of any situations in which Joint Committee staff members have consulted with Members for any other purpose during consideration of appropriation bills on the floor, nor had any such situations

Rule 32, clause 4: "No such person or clerk of a committee so admitted shall engage in efforts in the hall of the House or rooms leading thereto to influence Members with regard to the legislation being amended. Such persons and clerks shall remain at the desk and are admitted only to advise the member or committee responsible for their admission. Any such person or clerk who violates this clause may be excluded during the session from the Hall of the House and rooms leading thereto by the Speaker."

been brought to my attention previously. Nevertheless, I will reiterate to our staff members that they should take extra care when they are on the House floor to comply with the House rules against attempting to influence Members with regard to legislation under consideration. Please be assured that the staff will continue to be available, on a nonpartisan basis, to offer technical explanations and revenue estimates as requested by Members.

CLOSING REMARKS

Mr. FAZIO. We thank you for your time.

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 1984.

GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WITNESSES

WILLIAM J. BARRETT, ACTING PUBLIC PRINTER

WILLIAM F. KLUGH, ASSISTANT PUBLIC PRINTER FOR ADMINISTRATION MICHAEL F. DIMARIO, ASSISTANT PUBLIC PRINTER FOR INFORMATION DISSEMINATION/SUPERINTENDENT OF DOCUMENTS

THOMAS R. CULLEN, ASSISTANT PUBLIC PRINTER FOR PROCUREMENT JOSEPH E. JENIFER, ASSISTANT PUBLIC PRINTER FOR PLANNING ROBERT J. MCKENDRY, ASSISTANT PUBLIC PRINTER FOR PRODUCTION MARK C. CRAMER, GENERAL COUNSEL

GERALD E. SEBOLD, COMPTROLLER

W. SCOTT SONNTAG III, DEPUTY CUSTOMER SERVICE MANAGER/SUPERINTENDENT, CONGRESSIONAL PRINTING MANAGEMENT DIVISION JUDITH B. MORTON, LEGISLATIVE LIAISON/PUBLIC AFFAIRS OFFICER DONALD E. FOSSEDAL, DIRECTOR OF MARKETING

INTRODUCTION OF ACTING PUBLIC PRINTER

Mr. FAZIO. We will now reconvene the Subcommittee and take up the budget request of the Government Printing Office which as submitted comes to the grand total of $123,895,000, which is a decrease of $1.8 million under the 1984 appropriation.

We have the great honor and high privilege, as the Speaker says, today to welcome the acting Public Printer, Mr. Bill Barrett and members of his staff.

Bill, this is the first time you have been with us as the Public Printer. We are going to put your outstanding biography, which I have just been reviewing, in the record.

[The biography follows:]

WILLIAM J. BARRETT

William Joseph Barrett was born in Providence, Rhode Island on November 23, 1927. He attended elementary and high schools in Boston, Massachusetts, San Diego, California, and Alexandria, Virginia. Later, he attended Georgetown University, American University, the Department of Agriculture Graduate School, the Federal Executive Institute in Charlottesville, Virginia, and the Federal Executive Seminar Center at Kings Point, New York.

While attending high school (during war-time years), he worked evenings and Saturdays as a clerk for the Department of Agriculture.

While attending college, Mr. Barrett served full time as the featured sports columnist for the Alexandria Gazette, authoring a daily column entitled "Under the Sportscope."

From 1946 to 1949, Mr. Barrett was employed at Robert C. Jones and Company, a Washington Stock Brokerage firm.

Mr. Barrett entered Federal Civil Service in 1949 as a fiscal accounting clerk with the Department of the Navy. In 1951, he transferred to the Headquarters of the Navy Publications and Printing Service. From 1951 to 1962, Mr. Barrett served in progressively more important positions in the Navy's Publications and Printing

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