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of exports, which has encreafed from 502,000, at which it flood, the fift of the periods mentioned, next 910,000, the third 177,000, and now it is three millions.

He next ftated the relative fituation of this country and England in point of shipping, and he read from the cuftom house documents that the tonnage of Ireland at prefent comes to 536,000 tons, whilst the tonnage of England at the time of her reducing the rate of interest to five per cent. according to Mr, Chambers, a writer of great authority, was but 478,000 tons, and he infifted that this circumftance was a strong argument in favour of a reduction of intereft. He next obferved, that it had been asserted that the lowering of intereft would be draining Ireland of its current fpecies, but this he denied, and in respect to our current cafh, he was informed that no lefs than two thousand guineas a day had been fold and cut at the public offices for buying light money, and this he looked upon as another proof of the wealth of the country. Having dwelt on his different statements with very great accuracy and uncommon abilities, he infifted on it that the country was at this period peculiarly fitted for a reduction of intereft. He should not at prefent fay any more on the subject, but leave it before the House, fatisfied that he had done his duty; at the fame time he was convinced that this country would never rise into any very great confequence, as a commercial country, till the door of her trade was thrown open, and thefe fetters broken that had fo long kept it in durance: in the courie of the fpeech, which took up confiderable time, he evinced very great knowledge of the fubject, and applied his arguments with great force and capability to the pofition which he had originally laid down, namely, that a reduction of the rate of intereft was a defiable measure, and peculiarly adapted at the prefent time to the circumstances of this country.

Mr. Kearny was of opinion, that the measure ought not to be adopted until money can be had under the legal intereft.

Sir J. Blaquiere went at large into the fubject, he was willing to admit that the Right Hon. Gentleman has done exceedingly well for the State in reducing the intereft on the public funds from four to three and a half per cent, and the Kight Hon. Gentleman had his fincere thanks for his great attention to the intereft of the country on that occasion, but he said that the measure of reducing the intereft of the public debt had no thing in the world to do with the prefent question, at the fame time if the Right Hon. Gentleman will fhew him the poffibility or getting money at five per cent. he will be ready to acquiefce in the

mea ure.

He then took a view how far a measure of this nature might affect the commercial and landed intereft of the kingdom, and after reciting the preamble of the feveral acts for reducing the intereft of money, and quoting Smith on the Wealth of Nations, and Moni. Necker on the Subject of Intereft, and obferving that in Portugal, the legal intereft is at fix per cent, and that in Holland there is no regulation for the intereft of money, as every one there endeavours to get it on as cheap terms as they would any other marketable artitie. He was strongly of opinion, that the measure,

however juft the principles of it might be, was not fitted to the prefent time, and that in his apprehenfion, if it was carried into effect, it might produce confequences rather injurious to both the landed and commercial interefts of this country-he declared himself decidedly against the meature, and he concluded with the following quotation from Hume, "let Government preserve the trade, the manufactures and the ple, but the money of the kingdom may be trufted to itself."

Mr. Colville refuted the statement made by the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in respect to the tonnage of Great Britain and this country, and he asserted that the tonnage of this country did not at prefent confift of more than forty or fifty thousand tons, whereas according to Mr. Chambers, the tonnage of England according to Queen Anne's time, when the reduction of interett took place, amounted to four hundred and forty-four thousand tons of British only. He. declared himself against the measure.

Sir. H. Cavendish, in a speech of great length, spoke in favour of the measure.

The Solicitor General (Wolfe) rofe, he said, to give his decided oppofition to the bill in queftion, from his firm conviction, that the princi ple of the bill in queftion, was a bad one. If paffed into a law it would inevitably diminish the quantity of specie in the kingdom, and ultimately ruin our trade, arts, manufactures, husbandry, and every thing which depended on money for fupport. He traced the intereft of money to its origin, in the early ages, and amongst the Jews it was deemed finful to ask any intereft at all-but this error decreased, or the world became more enlightened, and commerce introduced mankind to each other. He contended that money fhould be held facred, and like any other article, fhould be allowed to procure its own value. It was like any common commodity - -it was brought to market-it was hired out—it was bought and fold; and if gentlemen would take the little advantage there was of leaving it in this country, they would foon find the dreadful confequences in a we ful scarcity of that article. He argued for a long time on these principles, and joftanced as a proof, that a friend of his, who had acquir ed fome little property in India, had confided about 50,000l. to him to dispose of in the most advantageous manner-but fince the report of the reduction of the intereft of money had gone abroad, his friend was fo alarmed, as to request a return of the money.

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Sir E. Newenham faid, his knowledge and abilities were not competent to give, at prefent, a decifive vote on a matter of so much importance; that he only sofe to express a wish, in which he believed every inpartial member would join him; he oblerved, that in a late Committee, the members had received interefting information from the Speaker; therefore, as he and other members had not made up their minds on the principle of this bill, he hoped it would be allowed to go into a Committee, where it could be more fully debated; and that House, and kingdom at large, would then have the affillance of the Speaker, whofe knowledge in trade and finance was univerfally allowed. 2992

Mr.

Mr. Clements was for going into a Committee, in order to hear every thing that could be offered for or against a measure of this very great confequence.

Sir B. Roche fpoke to the fame effect. Mr. Bushe spoke in favour of the measure. Sir F. Hutchinson, Sir F. Flood, Mr. Hartley, Mr. William Pontonby, Mr. Green, Major Hobart, Mr. Annesley, and Mr. Hewitt, fpoke against it.

Mr. Griffith, Mr. Moore. Mr. Brooke, Sir N. Lawlefs, and General Cunningham, spoke for the neceffity of going into a Committee on the bill, the question was then put, that the bill be committed, which was carried in the affirmative

without a diviûon.

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Tellers for the Ayes, Sir J. Blaquiere and Mr. Solicitor General.

Tellers for the Noes, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Sir N. Lawlefs.

Mr. Annefey now moved, that the bill be committed for Friday the 4th of April next. Negatived without a divifion.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer then moved, that the bill be committed on Saturday next. Motion agreed to..

And at half past eleven o'clock the Houle adjourned.

22.] Sir H. Cavendish, chairman of the felect committee appointed to try the merits of the petition of Francis Saunderson, Efq; complaining of the undue return of John Maxwell, Elq; for the co. Cavan, reported from faid Committee the following refolutions:

"Refolved, That John Maxwell, Efq; is not duly returned a Knight of the Shire, to serve in this prefent Parliament for the co. Cavan.

66 Refolved, That Francis Saunderflon, Efq; ought to have been returned a Knight of the Shire, to ferve in the prefent Parliament for the Co. Cavan."

And these refolutions of the Committee thus reported, were entered on the Journals of the House.

read had been entered into by a select comma tee; he faid that this refolution coupled wi the other two, made the return incomplete, faid it invalidated the report, and in his opini the report ought not to be received, and he cal ed upon gentlemen, who were acquainted wi the rule of Parliament in these cafes, to gi their opinion on the fubject. Mr. Browne wa prevented from proceeding by a cry of a member at the door, a member at the door.

Here Mr. Saunderfon was introduced, sworn and took his feat.

Sir L. O'Brien faid there was not the lealt ne ceffity for agreeing to the refolution now read, for the right of petitioning, if the party thought themselves aggrieved, exifted, without the interference of such a refolution.

The Secretary of State obferved, that there was no other power given to the Committee by the act of Parliament, than to try merely the merits of the petition, and he here defired that the petition be read, which being done, he said that the report of the Committee only went to the return, and the resolution offered to the House refers the party to another committee to try the merits of the election.

Mr. D. Daly defired that the minutes of the Committee, fhould be tent for, as they contained a most extraordinary refolution, which was, that council ought not to proceed to the merits of the election.

The Attorney General thought the proceedings of the Committee fo very extraordinary and incomprehenfible, that he was utterly at a loss to know in what manner it could be accounted for; in his opinion the report ought not to have been received, and the Committee fhould be fenc to re-confider their report for what was the cafe? Mr. Saunderson's petition against an undue return of Mr. Maxwell for the co. Cavan; the petition is referred to a select committee, and the committee report, that Mr. Saunderfon ought to have been returned; and by the refolution now offered by the right hon. Baronet, it is implied, that Mr. Saunderfon was not duly elected-and this refolution is founded on a cafe cited in Dugdale, of the return of a Mr. Eyre, as reprefentative for the borough of Malding.

He contended, that they ought to have gone into the merits of the petition, well as the legality of the return. They had not done fo. The Speaker asked if the clerk of the Hanaper The fact was, that their report ought to have attended at the bar with the return to the court been final and conclufive-but to rendit fuch, of the election, and being informed by Sir Lu-they fhould have complied with the letter and cius O'Brien that he did attend, he was called in, and at the table he was defired by the Speaker to erase the name of John Maxwell, Efq; out of faid return, and to infert in the room thereof the name of Francis Saunderfon, Elq.

Sir H. Cavendish then reported the third resolution of the Committee, which was as follow:

"Refolved, That John Maxweil, Efq; and the freeholders of the co. Cavan, have leave to petition the Houle within 14 days against the election of Francis Saunderdon, Elq."

Mr. D. Browne faid he believed that no infrance could be adduced under Mr, Grenville's at, where fuch a refolution as the one now

fpirit of the act, [which he read] Having ne glected to do fo, they were deficiens in what could alone render their report final and conclufive, and the Houfe fhould confider it 28 fuch.

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How otherwife was it poffible that gentlemen could ever fettle the business? Mr. Maxwell might fay, "I was a candidate to reprefent the county Cavan in Parliament-I was duly elected

but Mr. Saunderson thought proper to complain to the House of an undue election.A committee was appointed to try the merits of the petition, who did not enter into them-but reported, that I was not duly returned, and that Mr. Saunderfon ought to have been returned.But a privilege of petition to have the merits of

the

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of the election, as the o them by the petition, e committee had been f the House, which had 7fwearing in Mr. Saun

is for having the confipoftponed till Monday. involving not only the but allo the privileges pect to the great stress entry made in the Jourafe of a return for the a vote for the return of

was of opinion, that go back, till they found efolution fhews that the if Mr. Saunderson was he law of the land they er Mr. Saunderson was elected. He said that Mace earlier, Mr. Saunween fworn, and in his med to be embarrassed, ome to fome refolution

was a question of law, in of an act of Parliejatory in the house, and tee was entered on the hich was final and connow before the House, ort of the committee, it, and having nothing to be received by the

to admit that the report be final and conclufive, act of Parliament had Parliament requiring report their refolutions ving done fo, the report expreffed his embarrassion, and he humbly rethe fubje& fhould be hich opinion he said, him.

faid, that he faw no he Houfe could proceed he report of the select nts and purposes final h it appeared in conSttee had never entered ection, yet that was a jury which fhould be que a precedent which dignity and privileges

as now called for, when nto a committee of the confideration the petihe city of Dublin relacounfel to be heard in

ed the clerk to read the ordingly done, and the

Mr.

Mr. Clements was fo tee, in order to hear ex offered for or against a confequence.

Sir B. Roche fpoke Mr. Bushe spoke in f Sir F. Hutchinson, ley, Mr. William Ponf Hobart, Mr. Annesley, against it.

Mr. Griffith, Mr. 1 N. Lawless, and Ger for the neceffity of goit bill, the question was committed, which was without a division.

Sir F. Flood then m

mitted for the 1ft day i
pofed by Mr. Cuffe
Exchequer, and on th
Houfe divided,

For the motion
Against it,

Tellers for the Aj
Mr. Solicitor General,
Tellers for the N
Exchequer and Sir N
Mr. Annesley now
committed for Friday
Negatived without,
The Chancellor of
ed, that the bill be co
Motion agreed to..
And at half past el!!

journed.

22.] Sir H. Cave! lect committee appo the petition of Franc plaining of the undu Elq; for the co. Cava mittee the following "Refolved, That duly returned a Knig this prefent Parliame "Refolved, Tha ought to have been Shire, to serve in the €0. Cavan."

And these refoluti reported, were entei Houfe.

The Speaker afked attended at the bar w of the election, and cius O'Brien that he in, and at the tabl Speaker to erafe the Efq; out of faid re room thereof the Elq.

Sir H. Cavendish refolution of the C follow:

Refolved, That the freeholders of the petition the Houle wi tion of Francis Saunc

Mr. D. Browne fa Atance could be addu at, where fuch a 1

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the election exquired into. Mr. Saunderfon will have an opportunity of re-petitioning on the return, and thus we shall go on in fecula feculo rum."The report therefore ought not to have been received-but that having taken place, the only remedy now was to refcind it. The gentlemen might then be fent back. If they confider the merits of the election, and agree, that Mr. Saunderson has been duly elected, there the matter shall reft, and things remain as they are -but if it fall appear to them that Mr. Maxwell was duly elected, although not duly return. ed, the Houle may come to tuch reasonable refolution as their wildom fhall dictate.

Sir H. Cavendifh answered for himself, that he was not as one of filent committee, govern ed in opinion by the cafe cited by the hon. Gentleman, when deciding upon the return,

Mr. Forbes faid that the cafe was fimple and clear. It refolved itfelf into this--Was the report a proper one? and had it bee made according to the late act of Parliament for the purpofe? This perhaps might have admitted of doubt, but the time to have debated it, was when the report was delivering to the House but when that report had been accepted, and when the member in confequence had been fworn and admitted to take his feat, he was really at a lofs to conjecture by what poffible means the House could interfere" further in the business.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, he did not by any means intend to caft a reflection on any of the gentlemen who compofed the felet Committee. He was pofitive that they had decided according to the belt of their judg ment-but he thought it his duty to fee the law properly executed, and to vindicate the conúllency of the Houle by preventing contradic tory refolutions from appearing on the face of the journals.

What is the report of your select committee? it decides on the return, without ever confidering the merits of the election! that is, they decided on a matter upon which they were utterly unable to decide on juttly; because they should have hit gone into the merits of the election, in order to afcertain whether the fuffrages of Mr. Saunderfon were legal fuffrages, and not knowing whether they were or not, how could they Say, that he ought to be returned? The dignity of the Houfe would be injured by agreeing to fuch a report. It was contrary to their judgment, and contrary to common sense.

Mr. M. Smith faid, he had not the honour of knowing either of the gentlemen interefted in this business, but this was a question of very great importance, for it was the law for trying contented elections, fhould be abfolutely repealed or not, he asked if the refolutions of the committee were entered on the Journals of the Hople or not, [here the entry was read] He obferved that the act of Parliament makes the determination of the committee conclufive on the Houle, and the committee ought to confine themselves to the prayer of the petition, and at his defire the petition was read again. He now took no tice that the return only was complained of by the petition, and the committee were reftrained

from going into the mirts of the election, as the return only was referred to them by the petition, and the refolutions of the committee had been entered on the Journals of the House, which had been carried into effect by fwearing in Mr. Saunderfon,

Mr. Serjeant Toler was for having the confideration of the business poftponed ull Monday. He faid it was a question involving not only the privileges of the Houfe, but allo the privileges of the people, and in refpect to the great frels that had been laid on the entry made in the Journais, he inftanced the cafe of a return for the borough of Sligo, where a vote for the return of a member was refcinded.

The Solicitor General was of opinion, that the committee ought to go back, till they found a complete verdict, the refolution fhews that the committee were doubtful if Mr. Saunderson was duly elected or not, by the law of the land they were worn to try whether Mr. Saunderson was daly returned, and duly elected. He said that if this debate had taken place earlier, Mr. Saunderfon would not have been fworn, and in his opinion, as the House seemed to be embarrassed, it would be neceffary to come to fome refolution on the bufinef.

Mr. Curran faid this was a queflion of law, arising from a conftruction of an act of Parlia ment, the aft was mandatory in the house, and the report of the committee was entered on the Journals of the Houfe which was final and conclufive, and the refolution now before the House, being no part of the report of the committee, totally upconnected with it, and having nothing to fay to it, it ought not to be received by the house.

Mr. Hewitt was ready to admit that the report of the committee would be final and conclufive, if they had done what the act of Parliament had required, and the act of Parliament requiring that the committee should report their refolutions together, and they not having done fo, the report is confequently informal.

The Attorney General expreffed his embarrassment on the prefent question, and he humbly requefted that an opinion on the fubje& should be given from the chair, which opinion he said, thould be conclufive with him.

The Speaker rofe, and faid, that he faw no poffible means by which the House could proceed farther in the bufinefs, the report of the select committee was to all intents and purposes final and conclufive-and though it appeared in converfation, that the committee had never entered into the merits of the election, yet that was a circumftance of partial injury which should be fubmitted to rather than rilque a precedent which might be injurious to the dignity and privileges of the Houle.

The order of the day was now called for, when the House resolved itself into a committee of the whole House, to take into confideration the petition of the inhabitants of the city of Dublin relative to the Police, and for counfel to be heard in support of the said petition.

Mr. M. Beresford defired the clerk to read the petition, which being accordingly done, and the counlel called to the bar,

Mr.

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