parties; and that the whole tranfaction is under a falle colour, and false names. The litigation is not nor ever has been, between their rapacity and his hoarded riches. No; it is between him and them, combining and confederating on one side, and the public revenues and the miferable inhabitants of a ruined country on the other. These are the real plaintiffs and the real defendants in this fuit. Refufing a fhilling from his hoards for the fatisfaction of any demand, the nabob of Arcot is always ready, nay he earnestly, and with eagerness and paffion, contends for delivering up to these pretended creditors his territory and his fubjects. It is therefore not from treafuries and miner, but from the food of your unpaid armies, and from the blood witheld from the veins, and whipt out of the backs of the most miferable of men, that we are to pamper extortion, ufury, and peculation, under the falfe names of debtors and creditors of state. principal, till, by a regulation of the com- The cavalry debt stood next. This debt was contracted, and the company's credit engaged for its payment, by the ufurped power of these perfons, who had rebelliously, in conjunction with the nabob, overturned the lawful govern ment of Madras in the memorable year of 1777; and it is well known, that the delinquents, in order to make themselves a party to fupport them in power, dealt jobs about to any who were willing to receive thern. Of this loan Mr. Burke allo doubted whether the nabob ever received a shilling. were ftated to be as follow:inftead of ready money, the English money-jobbers engaged to pay the nabob's cavalry in bills payable in four months, for which they were to receive immediately at leaft one per cent. per mensent, but probably two, that being the rate generally paid by the nabob, and the receipt of a territorial revenue, for that purpose was affigned to them.Inftead of 4 months, it was upwards of 2 years before the arrears of the cavalry were discharg ed; and being, during all this time, in the conftant receipt of the affigned revenue, it is not improbable but that they paid off the mabob's troops with his own money. The facts relative to it After these general obfervations on the debt, Mr. Burke proceeded to examine the grounds on which Mr. Dundas had endeavoured to juftify them feparately. The loan of 1767, he allowed to stand the faireft of the whole, and that, what ever his fufpicions might be concerning a part of it, he could convict it of nothing worse than the most enormous ufury;- but that the loans had been made with the knowledge of the company, or had their approbation, he pofitively denied, and proved from their own records, that the very reverfe was the fact t. With refpect to the moderate intereft which it was faid to With refpect to the confolidated debt of 1777, bear, he stated, from the nabob's own letter, the Mr. Burke obferved, that though it had influ fact to be as follows:that the fum original- ence enough to obtain a protector, it had not ly advanced bore an intereft of 36 per cent.; plaufibility enough to find an advocate. If ever that it was afterwards brought down to 25 per a transaction called for investigation, it was this. cent. and at length to 20; that there it remain--The amount of the demand, in different ac ed, the intereft being all along added to the N O TE. The following extracts, amongst many others were read by Mr. Burke.In a letter written upon the subject of this loan, in 1769, the court of directors tell the prefidency of Madra" to your great reproach, it has been concealed from us. We cannot but fufpect this debt to have had its weight in the proposed aggran⋅ dizement of Mahomed Ali," [the nabob of Arcot] "but whether it has or has not, certain it is, you are guilty of an high breach of duty in concealing it from us." In 1770, after ftating that the trustees of the prefent creditors had received an affignment from the nabob to the amount of £360,000 annually, they add, "this affignment was obtained by three of the members of your board in January 1767, yet we do not find the leaft trace of it upon your confultations till August 1768." As to their approbation of it, he read the following extract from the fame letter, "We had the mortification to find, that the fervants of the company, who had been raifed, supported, and owed their prefent opulence to the advantages gained in fuch service, have in this inftance most unfaithfully betrayed their truft, abandoned the company's intereft, and prostituted its influence to accomplish the purpose of individuals, hilft the interest of the company is almost wholly neglected, and payment to us rendered extremely precaridus.” la counts, role from £1,300,000 to £2,400,000 But, faid Mr. Burke, what corrupt men, in and has again grafted on this meliorated ftock a perpetual annuity of 6 per cent. to take place from the year 1781. Let no man hereafter talk of the decaying energies of nature. All the acts and monuments of the records of peculation; the confolidated corruption of ages; the patterns of exemplary plunder in the heroic times of Roman iniquity, never equalled the gigan. tic corruption of this fingle act. Never did Nero, in all the infolent prodigality of defpotifm, deal out to his prætorian guards a donation fit to be named with the largels fhowered down by the bounty of our chancellor of the exchequer on the faithful band of his Indian Sepays. Mr. Burke then proceeded to invalidate the arguments urged by Mr. Dundas in defence of the orders of the board of controul respecting the debts, The end proposed, it had been faid, was the detection of the fraudulent claims. But by whom was this detection to be made? By the nabob, who was himself accufed as a collufive party. Befides, in the only complaint he ever made, that refpecting the cavalry loan, how had he been attended to? It was fixed on him with intereft on intereft, and excepted from all power of litigation. But the other creditors! were they authorized to enter into the exchequer of the nabob, and to fearch his records? Without his concurrence, what evidence of the fraud of the fmallest of thofe demands could be obtained? Had not the company itself struggled for a preference for years, without any detection of the nature of the debts with which they contended? After having thus investigated the nature and amount of the enormous load of debt, with which minifters had thought fit to load the revenues of the Carnatic, Mr. Burke called the attention of the house to the ruined condition of that country, in order to discover how much would remain, after fatisfying thofe demand, to provide for the public debt, and the neceffary eftablishments of government. Mr. Burke here entered into a hort state of the internal politics of the Carnatic, and of the caufes which produced the war with Hyder Ali. He then defcribed the ravages of that defolating war, which raged for eighteen months, without intermiffion, from the gates of Madras to the gates of Tanjore, and the redoubled horrors of the famine that enfued; infomuch that when the British armies traverfed, as they did the central provinces of the Carnatic for hundreds of miles in all directions, through the whole line of their march they did not fee one man, not one woman, not one child, not one four-footed beast of any description. He next proved, from the nature of the foil of the country, and the mode of cultivation, that it would require a long time, a ferious attention, and much coft, to re-establish it in its former condition. And what, added, M. Burke, would a virtuous and enlightened ministry do on the view of the ruins of luch works before them on the view of fuch a chafm of defolation as that which yawned in the mideft of those countries to the north and fouth, which ftill bore fome veftiges of cultivation? They would have reduced all their moft neceffary establishments; they would have fufpended the jufteit payments; they would have employed every fhilling derived from the producing to re-animate the powers of the unproductive parts. While they were performing this fundamental duty, whilft they were celebrating thefe myfteries of juftice and humanity, they would have told the corps of fictitious creditors, whofe crimes were their claims, that they muft keep an awful diftance; that they must filence their inaufpicious tongues; that they must hold off their profane unhallowed paws from this holy work; they would have proclaimed, with a voice that fhould make itself heard, that on every country the firft creditor is the plow; that this original, indefeasible claim fuperfedes every other demand. This is what a wife and virtuous miniftry would, have done and faid. This, therefore, is what our minifter could never think of faying or doing. A miniftry of another kind would have first improved the country, and have thus laid a folid foundation for future opulence and future force. But on this grand point of the refloration of the country, there is not one fyilable to be found in the correfpondence of our minifters, from the first to the laft: they left nothing for a land defolate by fire, fword, and famine; their fympathies took another direction; they were touched with pity for bribery, fo long tormented with a fruitful itching of its palms; their bowels yearned for ufury, that had long miffed the harvelt of its returning months; they felt for peculation, which had been for fo many years raking in the duft of an empty treafury; they were melted into compaffion for rapine and oppreffion, licking their dry, parched, unbloody jaws. Thele were the objects of their folicitude. These were, the neceffities for which they were ftudious to provide. He entered, laftly, into an examination of the actual state of the revenue of the Carnatic; contending, from feveral authentic documents, that the whole net revenue amounted, in the year 1782, to no more than £. 480,000, nearly the precife fum that the minifters had appropriated to the emolument of their creatures, the private creditors. With regard to the public debe due to the company, nothing, was provided for it, but an eventual turplus, to be fhared with one class of the private demands, after fatisfying the two firft claffes. Never, he faid, was a more shame. ful postponing a public demand, which, by the reason of the thing, and the uniform practice of all nations, fuperfedes every private claim. Mr. Burke took this occafion to make fome obfervations on the mode of fettling accounts be tween the nabob and the company, by which, fays he, the public and the private debus are made to play into each other's hands a game of utter perdition to the unhappy natives of India. The nabob fails into an arrear to the company. The The nabob's prefidency preffes for payment. anfwer is, I have no money. Good. But there are foucars who will fupply you on the mortgage of your territories. Then fteps forward fome Paul Benfield, and from his gra: feul compaffion to the nabob, and his filial regard to the company, he unlocks the treasures of his virtuous induftry; and for a confideration of twenty-four or thirty-fix per cent, on a mortgage of the territorial revenue, becomes fecurity to the company for the nabob's arrear. (To be continued.) Irifa Mr. Browne, of the College, objected to the gallery being cleared. He faid, the House as a public body, could certainly prevent all ftrangers from being prefent at their proceedings; but they had given the public for a long time an indulgence of admiffion to their gallery, which by prescription had become a fort of right. It was alfo thought neceffary for the improvement of the young gentlemen of the University. Many gentlemen who were deeply interested in the decifion, on the important bufinefs of the day, he averred, were refused admittance, although fupported by members, as the places were all mo. nopolized. After fome further animadversions, he gave notice, that unlefs fome regulation, he fhould be under the neceffity of moving at a future day-to have the whole alterations of the gal lery taken down. The names of the Members who were abfent on the call of the Houfe, were called over, and fuch as could not adduce fufficient excufes upon path, were ordered into cuftody of the Serjeant at Arms. Mr. Mar. Beresford presented his bill for mending and explaining the Police a&t. Read a firtt time. The title of the bill ending with-" and for other purposes therein mentioned,”- Sir H. Cavendish expreffed his objection against fuck a practice.—The title of the bill should express what thefe purpoles were-it might contain pe nalties which no man could be apprized of; and for his part,convinced of the danger of the mode, he should enter his protest against it, if it continued in that form. [Two of the Judges came down from the Lords with feveral money-bills. Sir H. Cavendish obferved, that when the Judges came down from the Lords with money. bills, it was ufual for them to be accompanied with the Gentleman Uher of the Black Rod, and not his deputy-though not very fond of punctilios, he thought an obfervance of form ef fential to our conftitution. He had learned that lefon many years ago.] Mr. M. Beresford replied to Sir H. Cavendifh, that although the title of the bill did conLain," and other purposes therein mentioned," the bill itself contained no extraneous matter, part of it went towards raifing a fundwhich was immediately and clofely connected with the establishment. He moved, that the bill be read a fecond time on Saturday next. Gent. Mag, July, 1788. Mr. Hartley thought that a decent time should be allowed for the confideration of a bill, which was already too generally obnoxious to the peo ple. He fhould not object however, to the se. cond reading-but wished that the bill was printed, in order that the public might be enabled to judge, whether the propofed alterations were adequate to the remedy of the evils complained of. He wished it at all events to be delayed for fome time, in order that it might be improved as much as poffible. Sir H. Cavendish explained, that he had no objection to the matter of the bill, but to the irregular mode which had crept into the House in framing the titles of bills. Mr. Browne, of the College, obferved, that the remark of the Honourable Baronet was of the highest importance. By the Police-act of laft feffion, the Whiteboy-act was revived for twenty-one years, which he had not been apprized of and though he was afked several times as a lawyer, whether fuch an act was in exiftence? he could not correctly tell; until by chance he had found the revival in a bill for regulating the Police of the city of Dublin ! This bill he afferted was a money-bill-for it im pofed duties. SUBJECT of TrTHES. The Right Hon. Mr. Grattán rofe, and faid, that he had intended this day to have agitated the fubject of tythes; but the first object of his mind was to bring it before the Houfe in the most respectable manner, and therefore he did not wish to pledge them at that time by the propofition of a modus-a commutation or another plan. It was not his wish to precipitate the bu finef's, or take any step that would bear the ap pearance of rafhnefs. He knew the value of their opinions too well, and he would only submit his ideas to them, when they might proceed as they should judge most prudent.Had he brought in a bill for the purpose of effecting a commutation of tythes, without any previous enquiry, he should have been triumphantly and justly accused of rashness. He would thereby have bound the Houfe down to a negative or an affirmative, by which fo important a business was either to be rejected or approved-that he was aware of, and had therefore avoided. He faid there had been a radical error in their former proceedings on this bufinefs-they had prefcribed a remedy without confidering the nature and extent of the difeafe-they had attempted to feule tythe difputes, without attending to the evils that grew out of tythes, and that in the prefeription of remedies, attention should be paid to the nature of the evil, was a fact that held good in politics, as well as phyfic.No committee had been appointed-no enquiry took place relative to the grievance complained of; although both were indifpenfably requifitewhat the Houfe had therefore refufed laft feffion, it was neceffary for them to grant in this, and he should therefore move for a committee, previous to any other proceeding, in order to enquire into the grievances complained of in the South of Ireland, and from thence might arife fuch circumftances as would afford foundation for the plans Bbb he meant to propofe-thefe plans were threeone for a commutation of tythe--another for a modus and the third a combination of both commutation and modus. By the first, the clei By were to receive a certain fum in lieu of tythes the valuation was to be made in tythe, and they were to be paid in currency to guard against any objection from the Auctuating value of fpecie the fecond was to be raised by applot ment and the third was to afford the clergy an acreable allowance in every county, the whole number of acres to be computed, and the allow ance to be raised by applotment. He then flat ed that when they should go into the committee, he had several allegations which the parties were ready to prove on oath, verifying the complaints of grievances in the South of Ireland but as he did not wish to rifque a matter of fach great moment on his own fpeculation, he should move, "That a committee be appointed to enquire whether any juft cause of discontent exifts amongst the people of the province of Munster, or of the counties of Kilkenny or Carlow, on account of tythe, or the collection of tythes, and if any, to report the fame, together with their opinion thereupon." The Attorney General differed entirely with the Right Hon. Gentleman, as to the mode of proceeding. It would be highly improper to fet the idea of redrefs afloat-and there by heat people's imaginations and without he flated a plan of remedy, he should oppole the measure in the fit inftance. If he did ftate one, for his part, he would give it a fair difcuffion-but to take any step in the bufinels, would tend by difap pointment, to encrease the difcontents that exifted among the lower orders. The Right Hon. Gentleman had admitted it to be a question of difficulty-and yet he wanted the Houfe immediately to go into a committee, to confider, &c. &c. (here he repeated the motion) and to report their opinion thereon. Convinced of the bad confequences that might attend an affent o it, he would give it his oppofition. He called upon the Gentleman, if he had any plan to propofe to bring it forward. Major Hobart was again the motion. The fame measure had been refufed laft year-and he knew no reason for its being then affented to. The Right Hon. Mr. Brownlow observed, that it had been admitted on all fides that grievances had exifted, and it was therefore but juit that committee should be appointed to enquire into their nature, extent and remedy. This inquiry had been deferred last feffion only until order and tranquility fhould be reftored. And it was impossible that it could excite any clamour or create any new disturbances. Major Hobart denied that there was any fuch compromife, as to difcufs the grievances of the South when peace thould be restored. Mr. Browne, of the College, said he rofe with reluctance, and not without fome degree of indignation on the prefent occafion-when the rights of the church were attempted to be invaded, and the minifters of the Gofpel afpersed. He supposed that the plendour of the Right Hon, Gentleman's abilities, his fuperior talents, and the romantic fuccefs that had attended all his former exertions, had induced him to this- the magnitude of the object rendered it worthy his daring to attempt.- - He raifed and restored the conftitution in the state, and now he wanted to pull it down in the church. He afked who had authorised him to propofe his innovations? Had he been called on by the people? Had he been called on by the clergy? No. Were there any petitions prefented to the House? None. Where then originat ed this clamour which had almoft “* frighted the ifle from her propriety?" Mr. Browne (poke to this point for fome time, and infifted upon the impraticability for subiliuting any mode for the support of the clergy different from, the prefent, with either equity or juftice to clergy or laity-and remarked, that it Was better for us to bear the evils that we have, than fly to others that we know not of.”: The Right Hon, Mr. Grattan again rofe, and faid, that he would enter upon the subject, although if fuffered to go into a committee, what he had to fay would come with much more proLord Kingborough rofe to fecond Mr. Grat-priety, when both parties would have an oppor tan's motion. His Lordship bore teftimony to the unparalleled diftreffes of the common people in the South of Ireland, which from his refidence in that part of the kingdom, he had a perfect opportunity of knowing. He faid, that those who cultivated poor lands, were utterly unable to pay tythe-although tythe was rigo roufly demanded from them, which retarded the improvement of the country; and he had known poor wretches to be fued for the fum of 108. an acre tythe for potatoes, in the county of Cork, where the crop perhaps was worth lule more. His Lordship had himself been cited to an Ecclefaftical Court, for not complying with an exor bitant and illegal demand, and had he been a poor man, unconfcionable and illegal as it was, he fhould have been obliged to comply with it, without ever having brought the matter to iffue. He ftrongly recommended the appointment of a committee, when the Houfe would be enabled to judge of the event of the grievances, and of the remedy molt suitable. tunity of being heard. One gentleman cenfurred him for not bringing forward a system-and another for attempting to bring forward any fyltem at all. However, he was fanctioned in his conduct by the practice of the Houses of Parliament in both kingdoms-he was fanctioned by common fenfe, which pointed out the neceffity of attending to complaints, when they are feriqully made, and coming to a proper deci fion on them. His reafon for wishing to go in. w a committee wa, that he would deem himfelf in fome degree culpable, if he attempted to precipitate Parliament, in proceeding upon a meature of fuch high importance. He did not say that the clergy were in all cafes blameabiemail he defred was, that an examination fhould take place. He spoke very reipectfully of the Hon Gemleman, (Mr. Browne) who had alluded to him, and declared, that his modeft worth demanded efteem, and his opinion merited respect. He' had exceeded the rack-rent of the land that they proved, that it was a practice to charge for more acres than the peasant had and that this was verified by the furvey (worn to, and falfifying the proctor's charge—they prove that tythe has been valued in fome cafes at three times more than the tenth; and they prove in general an exceffive and unconscionable exaction. He then flated the redress which the parishion He faid it had been fuppofed that the demands of the church-though sometimes exorbitant-had not been ever illegal, that the contrary would, he understood be proved; that tyche had been demanded for turf, that tythe of turf had been farmed; that tythe of turf had been changed for two fhillings the hearth; that ia fome inflances it had been demanded under the name of Smoke money! and had become a formed exaction, with a diftinct and ludicrousers had from the Court, against these heavy exappellation; a right had been affumed against the law, and a leg flative power of commutation had been exercifed; the law would relieve, it was fuppofed, but he had authority from the first lawyer of his time, and now first judge, to fay, that in the courfe of his profeffion he had taken feveral exceptions to libels in the Spiritual Court, and that they were over-ruled; and he had the fame authority to fay, that the parfon and the court in this instance had invaded the laws; that he understood tythe of furze had been demanded, in cafes where they were not cut for fale, but where they were, as the language is, fpent on the premises, burned in the owner's name, and cut for his ufe, not fale; that is, in circum ftances wherein they were not fubject to tythe. actions-he flated, that the Vicar's Court was a party Cut, that the Judge was one of the body, or appointed by the body-and tho' in some cafes, the juftice of the individual might controul his fituation the Judge, from the conftitution of that Court, was a party Judge-that the Court was a moft expenfive judicaturethat the colts were feldom less than 11. 6s. 8d. and the fum in difpute fometimes not 55.that the witnefs on whole credit they frequently decreed, was a contemptible and fufpicious witness-not the party, but the proctor or fervant of the party and that the grounds on which he formed his testimony gave ample scope to his bias and corruption-that he ufually viewed the premises, when the crop was green, or when the ground was red; in the firft cafe, he could not value with any fufficient certainty-nor in the latter, with any certainty at all. He frequently gueffed at the quantum of land, produce and value, without furvey, weight, or measure! Mr. Grattan then read copies of several de He then proceeded, and stated, "that the mode of collecting the tythes was in fome parishes op. preffive and illegal, that the tythe proctor exacted one, or frequently two fhillings in the pound; that the clergy might with as much propriety make the parish pay their butler, coachman, or any of their domeftics-that this decrees, founded on fuch kind of evidence, and mand, he fuppofd, was originally made for an undervalution, but that now in many for the full valuation, and ten per cent, was paid by the parishioner for the privilege of paying the full tenths to the parfon! that he had in fome cafes the proctor's schedule of demand, which ran," so much for potatoes, fo much for wheat, barley," &c. &c. all high rateages-and that in addition to an exorbitant demand for the parfon came in a peculation for the proctor of two fhillings in the pound, by making a rateage, for the excefs and uncharitableness of which he ought to have been not paid, but difmiffedthat although it had been alledged, the full tenth on tillage was never demanded, he understood the affertion would be controverted. He then flated feverally the various articles that paid tythes in Munfter, and oblerved, that every thing was tythed there which were tythed in any other part of the kingdom-that potatoes were tythed there which were tythed no where elle-and that each article was tythed the higheft. He then went into the rateages for potatoes, wheat, barley, bere, oats and hay-and from the returns of perfons appointed to try the petition under the compenfation act-from leveral schedules given by private hands-but capa Lle, as he was informed, of being fupported by evidence on oath from the tythe-proctor's bills and receipts and from a multitude of affidavits, which he had in his hand, and flated. He fhewed that the rateages in the South were exceffive, and to the last degree uncharitable. He ftated that the affidavits proved, that the cofts in the Ecclefiaftical Courts, in fome cases, exceeded ten-fold the original fum-that they proved, that the tythe demanded in some cases in 1786, extracted from the rule books of the Vicar's Court, in the diocese of Cefhel-where ic appeared, that they calculated the number of barrels, or even stones, which the acre of potatoes and wheat might produce, either on the fuperfi cial and partial view, or the most extraordinary and partial eftimate of their proctors, valuators, and dependants! He condemoed exceedingly the uncertainty and defect of luch grounds, for the decifion of property-and faid, that the minute divifion of the produce in barrels and stones, was an ingenious and exceptionable device to accumulate exaction on the poor. He compared this mode of proceeding to an apothecary's bill, filled with little dirty items, to fwell an exorbitant account. He said, that it appeared from fome of those decrees, that they had given the proctor or parfon a market price, whereas in juftice and law, he was only entitled to a field price-a price formed after all allowances, not only for digging and drawing, as is the cafe of potatoes, but for cleaning where made. That it appeared by these decrees, that the rate ages were exorbitant that in a year of famine, 1783, it appeared they had rated potatoes, in fome one of their decrees, about one guinea an acre, a moft equitable famine price! flax above a guinea an acre, another equitable famine price! hay twelve shillings an acre, all equitable famine prices! to which is tacked 11. 6. 8d. coft!that it appeared they had charged one acre of po tatoes, in a year of famine, the year 83, 21. 188. that they had, in some cases, set forth a plenty produce, and annexed to it a famine price! avail. ing themselves of famine, which was unchriftian and uncharitable; and making Pleaty itself the Bbb 2 fcourge |