there in the last ten years been expended in useless legislation upon this subject, in discussions as to whether a county or counties should be divided, and upon the subject of removing seats of justice? tle, Wayne, Whitley, anu Harlan, being twenty one counties, took from the treasury $9,506 34 more than they paid into it. We learn from the same report, that the counties of Monroe, Pike, Adair, Ballard, Crittenden, Graves, Hickman, Meade, McCracken, Hancock, Estill, Allen, ButThe legislature sits at a cost to the people of ler, Casey, Carter, Clay, Edmonson, and Larue, more than five hundred dollars per day; and it sixteen in number, for that year paid, altogether, has been known to be engaged, repeatedly, for into the treasury, only $4,712 71 more than they weeks, upon a question as to whether or not a took from it. Many of the counties which I county should be divided, or a seat of justice have mentioned, it will be observed, are new, removed. I have said, sir, that excessive and others of them are old; yet if you will inquire unncessary legislution upon this subject, had it will be found that the old ones have been so operated most unjustly and oppressively upon divided and curtailed as to reduce them from private interests. This is true, and all know it counties of the first respectability and impor- to be so. If you will examine the different acts tance, to their present condition. Now, Mr. establishing counties, it will be seen that the President, take the sums paid by the counties legislature in the law or act, by which the counwhich pay the smallest amounts into the treasury, and add these sums together until you have an amount equal to the sum taken from the treasury by the counties first named, and it will be seen that the whole, or very nearly the whole revenue, paid for the support of the government, is derived from about fifty counties, and that the other fifty afford little or no aid in support of the government. the poor mechanic who upon the faith of this promise had expended his all in the purchase and improvement of a lot at one of those seats of justice permanently located by legislative enactment, stripped of all he has by an act of a succeeding legislature, which either divides the county or removes the seat of justice; and if a county be divided, it genrally follows that the seat of justice is removed, and when this is done the town is deserted, and property in it is at once rendered valueless. Such was the case in Calloway county, which was but a few years ago divided by legislative enactment. The people were informed by the act of the legislature by which that county was created, that the seat of ty is established, generally, if not in all cases, fix the seat of justice permanently (as the act reads) at some point named in the act, thus voluntarily giving a legal promise that if persons see proper to expend their money in the purchase and improvement of property at the seat of justice, such expenditure shall not be sacrificed by a removal of that seat of justice, yet how often have we seen this legal, this voluntaThis state of things is mainly and legitimate-ry promise, wantonly and grossly violated, and ly attributable to that mistaken policy heretofore indulged in by the legislature, and which we now propose in some measure to remedy, It is insisted, however, sir, notwithstanding all this, that this question properly belongs to the people of such counties as may desire their division, and that this convention would do wrong in laying down any rule upon this subject. And it is further insisted, that a majority of the people of a county should be permitted, without restriction, to divide it whenever they see proper to do so. I deny that the people of any county have the right, or should have the right to divide their county when they see proper to do so, regardless of consequences to the state. If this doctrine be true, then whenever a ma-justice was permanently located at Waidsboro', jority of the people of a county conclude to divide it, it must be done, be the size and situation of the county what it may, be it large or small. If this question be local to the people of the different counties, and I have said that in some respects it may be regarded as local, then I contend that we are positively instructed by our constituents to apply some such restriction upon this subject as is proposed by the report which we are considering. One of the greatest evils of which the people of the state complained, and which exercised as great and powerful an influence in bringing about, and in inducing the people to call this convention, was the fact, that under the existing state of things, there was excessive and improper legislation upon local subjects, greatly to the detriment of the public interest-subjects in which the people of the state generally had and felt no interest whatever. The people at large have no earthly beneficial interest in the division of a county. They, sir, are deeply, most deeply interested that the impolitic legislation such as has herotofore been indulged in on this subject, be checked. Yes, sir, checked at least. It tends to no general good, and the people know it. Its only tendency is to impoverish the state, as well as individuals. How many thousands of dollars has and upon the faith of this legislative promisevoluntarily made-many good citizens in humble circumstances were induced to, and did expend their all in the purchase and improvement of property at that place. What is now the fact? The legislature some few years past, as I have before said, passed an act by which that county was divided; the division line being run just so as to miss the town, in consequence of which the seat of justice was immediately removed from Waidsboro'; in consequence of which that place has been almost entirely deserted, and the property of its citizens rendered worthless; all this was done in defiance of the just and united opposition of the citizens of that town and a large portion of the people of the county. This, sir, is only one instance out of many that I could name of the flagrant injustice and wrong done to private persons under such circumstances. Look, sir, at Salem, destroyed by the division of Livingston county, some two or three years ago. Fulton county was organized by the division of Hickman but a short time since. Why was this new county made? Not because Hickman had too much territory, but because so much of her territory had been taken to aid in the formation of Ballard, that it threw Clinton out of the centre, and it became dred and seventy-six square miles; nor shall any new county be laid off of less contents." When we look into the constitution of Arkansas, we find this provision: "No county now established by law, shall ever be reduced by the establishment of any new county, or counties, to less than nine hundred square miles, nor to a less population than its ratio of representation; nor shall any county be hereafter established which shall contain less than nine hundred square necessary, either to divide the county or remove | is found: "No new county shall be established the seat of justice, and break up the people of by the legislature, which shall reduce the counClinton. I could, if I had time sir, refer to al-ty, or counties, or section of others, from which most innumerable cases of wanton and unneces-it may be taken, to less contents than five hunsary injustice done to private rights by the policy heretofore pursued by the legislature upon this subject, and from which no corresponding private or public benefit ever has or ever will result. Then sir,is it singular, or at all to be wondered at when it is seen that the legislature has time and again violated those legal pledges, voluntarily made to the people, that it should have forfeited their confidence and esteem. It is not. When our neighbor disregards and violates his promise made to another, he looses the confidence of that neigh-miles, or a less population than would entitle bor; so with the legislature, when it violates and disregards its pledges made to the people, and made too in the solemn form of law, that people so deceived and abused, must and will loose confidence in the person or body by whom they may have been deceived. I repeat that there is nothing in the proposition of the committee, so strange and new, that gentlemen need be startled by it. If gentlemen will examine, they will find that the new constitution of Tennessee provides that "new counties may be formed not to contain less than three hundred and fifty square miles of territory, such new county must at the time it is created contain four hundred and fifty qualified voters, that no line of such new county shall approach nearer to the court house of the county from which it may have been taken than twelve miles, nor shall the old county be reduced to less than six hundred and twenty five square miles," more than a third larger than the committee propose to leave the old counties of Kentucky. such county to a member in the house of representatives." 1 will now read from the constitution of Iowa, which has this provision: "No new county shall be laid off hereafter, nor old county reduced to less contents than four hundred and thirty-two square miles." So we find that ten of the states of this Union have incorporated into their constitutions provisions similar to those proposed to be inserted in the constitution of Kentucky. Most of the states mentioned are new. Some of them, however, are old, and have remodeled their constitutions, and adopted this principle. Why have they done so? For the reason, I presume, that they have all seen, and some of them have felt, a positive necessity for it. They have seen, as we must now see, that it is the only means by which peace and quiet can ever be hoped for upon this disturbing subject; for, unless some such principle be adopted, questions of division will ever be present in the legislature, and by them the time of that body will be consumed in useless discussion, and the money of the people wasted. Shall we not, then, at least, confine the legislature within reasonable limits upon this subject. The people expect us to adopt some such principle as the one indicated by the select committee; they wish to know where this thing is to end. If our present constitution had such a provision, the advantages to the state, which would have resulted from it, are incalculable. New Now turn to the constitution of Ohio. There we find that no new county can be made, having less than four hundred square miles of territory, nor can the old county or counties, or either of them, from which it may be taken, be reduced to a less number of square miles. We find that by the constitution of Texas, no county can be formed, when by so doing, the county or counties, or either of them, from which it may be taken, shall be reduced in area to less than nine hun- I wish now, Mr. President, to call the attendred square miles, unless by consent of two- tion of the convention to the territorial size of thirds of the legislature; nor shall a new county each state in this Union-their population in be established, unless it has as much territo- the year 1840, and the number of counties in ry. The constitution of Michigan has this pro- each state. It will be seen that states with largevision: "No county now organized by faw, ly over double the population of Kentucky, and shall ever be reduced by the organization of new with greatly more territory, have but little over counties, to less than four hundred square half the number of counties we have. miles." The constitution of Missouri has this York has 46,000 square miles of territory, has provision: "No county now established, shall a population of 2,428,921 souls, she has only 58 ever be reduced by the establishment of new counties. Pennsylvania has the same territory counties, to less than twenty miles square; nor as New York, with a population of 1,724,033 shall any county hereafter be established, which souls, and only 55 counties. Maryland 13,959 shall contain less than four hundred square square miles, with a population of 469,232 and miles." Now, sir, look at the constitution of but 20 counties. Massachusetts, 7,500 square Alabama. In it we find this provision: "No miles, with a population of 737,699 and only 14 new county shall be laid off hereafter, nor old counties. Delaware, 2,120 square miles of tercounty reduced to less contents than four hun-ritory, with a population of 78,085 and 3 coundred and thirty-two square miles." We find in ties. Connecticut has 4,674 squre miles, with the constitution of Indiana this provision: "The a population of 300,015 and 8 counties. general assembly, when they lay off any new county, shall not reduce the old county, or counties, from which the same shall be taken, to a less content than four hundred square miles." In the constitution of Mississippi, this provision Georgia, has 58,000 square miles, with a population of 691,392 and she has 93 counties. North Carolina has 48,000 square miles, with a population of 753,419 and she has 68 counties. South Carolina has 25,000 square miles, with a population of 594,398 and she has only 29 counties. Vir-ject, that all understand it, and therefore, it ginia has 64,000 square miles, with a population would be a useless consumption of time to enof 1,239,797 and has 119 counties. Our state, quire into the causes which bring about and Kentucky, has 40,500 square miles, with a pop-cause these questions to spring up and afflict the ulation of 779,828 and she has 100 counties. people; for the existence of a question of diviTennesee has 45,000 square miles, with a popu- sion in a county, is indeed a sore affliction to lation of 829,210 souls, and she has 72 counties. the citizens of that county. It impairs the value Ohio has 40,000 square miles, with a population of lands and other property. It prevents the of 1,519,466 and she has 79 counties. Indiana improvement and settlement of the county. It has 36,000 square miles, with a population of paralizes, in a great measure, the energies of the 685,866 souls, and she has 87 counties. Illinois people. It prevents the growth and improvehas 50,000 square miles, with a population of ment of the towns located in counties where 476,183 and she has 87 counties. Alabama has such questions unfortunately exist. Many good 46,000 square miles, with a population of 590,- citizens are, in consequence of it, driven from 756 souls, and she has 49 counties. Florida has the county, and others who would, if no such 57,000 square miles, with a population of 54,- question existed, settle in it, decline doing so in 477 and she has 20 counties only. Arkansas has consequence of the existence of such a state of 54,500 square miles, with a population of 97,- things. Divide a county and what follows as 574 and she has 40 counties. Louisana has 45,- an inevitable consequence? The taxes of the 350 square miles, with a population of 352,411 people of that county are increased fourfold. and she has 38 counties or parishes. Mississippi Litigation receives a fresh impetus. You will has 45,760 square miles, with a population of find vice, immorality, and crime, greatly in375,651 and she has 56 counties. Missouri has creased, besides other evils al nost or quite in64,000 square miles, with a population of 383,- numerable growing out of it. The people of the 702 and she has 62 counties. Maine has 30,000 divided territory have been disappointed; some square miles, with a population of 501,793 and of them in the location of the seat of justice, she has only 13 counties. New Jersey has others because they wanted office, and hoped 8,320 square miles, with a population of 373,306 from the division to obtain it, but have failed. and she has 18 counties. New Hampshire has In fact, sir, dissatisfaction is one of the certain 9,280 square miles, with a population of 284,574 results of division; it never produces contentand she has 10 counties. Rhode Island has ment and peace. 1,360 square miles, with a population of 108,830 and she has 5 counties. Vermont has 10,212 square miles, with a population of 291,948 and she has 14 counties. Michigan has 66,000 square miles, with a population of 212,267 and she has 32 counties. Iowa has 150,000 square miles of territory, with a population of 43,111 and she has only 18 counties; and Wisconsin has 90,000 square miles, with a population of 30,945 and she has 22 counties. I am not informed as to the extent of the territory of Texas, or her population, but this we do know sir, that she has had the prudence and forecast to lay certain restrictions on her legislature upon the subject of creating new counties. We see that Virginia is the only state in the Union, composed as it is, of thirty states, that has as many counties as Kentucky has, and that state has about one third more of territory and something like twice our population. If, sir, we are called upon as the delegates of the people in convention, to amend the existing constitution in any respect, we must unquestionably feel that this is one of the defects which calls most loudly for remedy. II move to lay it on the table. have witnessed the rise and progress of these districting questions of division nearly all my life, and I do here declare that I never have known good, but evil, nothing but evil, unmitigated evil, to result from them. I might go on and show how they are generally gotten up and 'the common object had in view by such as orignate them. It might be shown that the object -in view is not at all times in truth the promotion of the convenience of the people who inhabit the county, the division of which is desired, but that the object of those generally, who originate and advocate such questions is in fact to promote their own personal interest. But, sir, I presume that gentlemen will, in giving their votes upon this proposition, act upon the general principle, and so far as their action shall be concerned, they will not enquire or know whether there be a question in any county in the state in relation to its division. Our votes will not, and should not be influenced either way from the fact that the people or a part of the people of any county in the state may desire its division. "We should be actuated alone in this matter by the simple and plain proposition: Will it be right to fix some rule upon this subject, beyond which the legislature in future shall not go? I for one, am thoroughly satisfied that the principle contained in this report should be adopted as part of the constitu tion, and that its adoption will meet with the hearty approbation of the people. Mr. NEWELL. This is a subject which has been heretofore before the convention. It is a subject in relation to which I presume every mind is made up. It is a subject which I am willing to leave to the legistature, and therefore, Mr. C. A. WICKLIFFE. Before the vote upon that motion is taken, I desire the roll to be | The roll was called accordingly. YEAS-John S. Barlow, Alfred Boyd, William Bradley, Francis M. Bristow, Thomas D. Brown, William C. Bullitt, James S. Chrisman, Beverly L. Clarke, Jesse Coffey, Henry R. D. Coleman, Benjamin Copelin, William Cowper, Lucius Desha, Milford Elliott, Green Forrest, Nathan Gaither, James H. Garrard, Richard D. But, sir, there has been so much strife and con- Gholson, Thomas J. Gough, James P. Hamilton, tention in the different counties upon this sub-John Hargis, Vincent S. Hay, William Hendrix, Thomas J. Hood, Alfred M. Jackson, William the same time and places, and possessed of the VOTE OF AN ABSENTEE. Mr. HARGIS asked leave to record his vote on the subject of the basis of representation, which was disposed of in his absence yesterday. Leave was refused. MODE OF AMENDING THE CONSTITUTION. The convention next proceeded to the consideration of the following report of the committee on the revision of the constitution and slavery: In the year it shall be the duty of the several sheriffs, and other returning officers, to take the sense of the good people of this commonwealth, as to the necessity and expediency of calling a convention, at the several places of voting in their respective counties, on the first Monday in August, by opening a poll for, and making a return to, the secretary of state, for the time being, of the names of all those entitled to vote for representatives, who shall vote for calling a convention. And if, thereupon, it shall appear that a majority of all the citizens of this state, entitled to vote for representatives, have voted for a convention, a similar poll shall "SEO. 1. When experience shall point out the be opened and taken for the next election; and if necessity of amending this constitution, and a majority of all the citizens of the state, entiwhen a majority of all the members elected to tled to vote for representatives, shall a second each house of the general assembly shall, within year vote for a convention, the general assembly the first twenty days of any regular session, shall, at their next session, call a convention, to concur in passing a law for taking the sense of consist of as many members as there shall be in the good people of this commonwealth as to the the house of representatives, and no more; to be necessity and expediency of calling a conven- chosen at the same time, manner, and places, and tion, it shall be the duty of the several sheriffs, in the same proportion that representatives are and other officers of elections, at the next gene- chosen, and to meet in three months after the said ral election which shall be held for representa- election, for the purpose of re-adopting, amendtives to the general assembly after the passage ing, or changing, this constitution. The qualiof such law, to open a poll for, and make return fication of delegates to the convention shall be to the secretary of state, for the time being, of the same as members of the house of representathe names of all those entitled to vote for repre- tives, except that ministers of the gospel shall be sentatives, who have voted for calling a conven- eligible as members of the convention. If it tion; and if, thereupon, it shall appear that shall appear by the vote of either year, as aforemajority of all the citizens of this state, en- said, that a majority of all the citizens entitled titled to vote for representatives, have voted for to vote for representatives did not vote for a calling a convention, the general assembly shall, convention, none shall be called; and a similar at their next regular session, direct that a simi- poll shall be opened every year, until a lar poll shall be opened, and return made, for majority, as aforesaid, shall, for two years in the next election for representatives; and if, succession, vote for the call of a convention; thereupon, it shall appear that a majority of all and when such vote shall be given, the general the citizens of this state, entitled to vote for assembly shall, at their next session, call a conrepresentatives, have voted for calling a conven-vention as above prescribed, and pass such laws tion, the general assembly shall, at their next for carrying the call into effect as may be session, pass a law calling a convention, to con- proper.' sist of as many members as there shall be in the house of representatives, and no more; to be chosen in the same manner and proportion, at a Mr. TURNER. This proposition is not designed to provide for specific amendments, but it proposes to take the subject out of the hands of the legislature and of politicians, and hence to avoid the frequent díscussion of excitable topics. Mr. GRAY. I beg leave to offer the follow ing as a substitute for the propositton of the gentleman from Madison: "The mode of revising and amending the constitution shall be as follows: Any specific amendment of amendments to the constitution, may be proposed in the senate or house of representatives, and if the same shall be agreed to by a majority of the members elected to each of the two houses, such proposed amendment or amendments shall be entered on their journals, with the yeas and nays taken thereon, and published for three months previous to the next succeeding election for representatives to the general assembly, in at least one newspaper of each county, if any be published therein, and shall be submitted to the people at said election, in such manner as the general assembly may prescribe; and if the people shall approve such amendment or amendments, or any of them, by a majority of all the electors of the state qualified to vote for members of the general assembly, such amendment or amendments, so approved, shall be referred to the general assembly chosen at said election; and if, in said general assembly, such proposed amendment or amendments, or any of them, shall be agreed to by a majority of all the members elected to each house, then it shall be the duty of the general assembly to again submit such proposed amendment or amendments, or such of them as may have been agreed to, as aforesaid, by the two general assemblies, to the people, at the next election for judicial officers, or members of the general assembly, and if the people, at said second election, shall approve and ratify such amendment or amendments, or any of them, by a majority of all the electors of the state qualified to vote for members of the general assemby, such amendment or amendments, so approved and ratified, shall become part of the constitution: Provided, That if more than one amendment be submitted, they shall be submitted in such manner and form that the people may vote for or against each amendment separately and distinctly; but no amendment or amendments shall be submitted to the people oftener than once in years: And, provided further, That the article of the constitution concerning slaves, this article and the portion which provides that no man's property shall be taken or applied the public use without the consent of his representatives, and without just compensation being previously made to him, shall never be amended or changed, without the concurrence of two thirds of all the members elected to each house of the general assembly, at two successive sessions, and a majority of all the electors of the state qualified to vote for members of the general assembly, at two successive elections." That sir, is the same proposition I presented to the convention early in the session, and it was printed and submitted to the committee on the revision of the constitution and slavery. It is not my purpose, at this time, to detain the convention with any protracted remarks on this subject; for it is a question on which, I presume, the mind of every member is made up. The mode in which our constitution shall henceforth be revised is certainly a question of the greatest moment. It was a question sit, that excited the community as much, probably more, than all others prior to the election of the delegates to this convention. Almost every other amendment proposed to the constitution was lost sight of, or overshadowed by the high wrought feeling and excited interest thrown around this question by the action of the emancipationists of the state. There are few members of this body who do not, in some degree, owe their elevation to their peculiar views in relation to this matter. And, all so far as I know, are committed, as well as inclined, to provide in the constitution we are about to make, as strong, safe, and certain guaranties, for the enjoyment and security of slave property, and all other property, as are to be found in the existing constitution. To insure the stability, security and uninterrupted enjoyment of property, and all other rights dear to freemen, much, very much, depends on the mode provided for revising the constitution; yet I am aware that, on this subject, great diversity of opinion exists amongst the members of this convention. The gentleman from Madison appears to think that the mode of specific amendments will be so uncertain, and will result in so much instability to our institutions, as to keep us in a state of perpetual excitement and fear. So far from this being the case, sir, I am convinced that it will have a tendency directly the reverse that it will be more certain in its operation, more stable and satisfactory in its results. If the gentleman will attend to the reading of the amend ment I propose, he will find that no provision of the constitution can be altered or amended without the approval of the legislature at two ses sions, by a majority of all the members, and that the changes thus decided upon by the legisla ture, must have the consent and ratification of a majority of all the qualified voters of the state, at two elections, before such changes can go into operation. The same deliberation, the same precaution, the same time, will be required, to change any single article, or section of the constitution, as will be necessary, by the plan of the committee, to change, or modify the whole instrument. The same certainty, the same security, the same guarantee of stability is, by this means, thrown, like a shield, around each article of the constitution, separately, and by itself, which you now propose to throw around the whole instrument; and I hold that these advantages will be much more effectually secured by the mode of specific amendments, thus suggested, than by the plan proposed by the gentleman from Madison, or the report of the committee. From what source does the gentleman anticipate the danger he appears so much to dread? Is it from the legislature?-is it from the people? I presume not. The gentleman admits that at first he was in favor of specific amendments, and says he was almost caught in the snare. I have no doubt he has retrograded a little on this subject, and I have as little doubt that most of the gentlemen in this hall, if they would speak their sentiments, would make similar confes sions. And what has produced this wondrous change? Why, sir, there was a certain emanci |