Mr. FAZIO. When is the change? What is the grade and the rank? Chief LANGLEY. The Chief does not earn comp time under any circumstance, nor does the Assistant Chief. The Deputy Chief, which is a bureau commander level, will only work it on my authorization on his day off or her day off, or for a Joint Session, State of the Union, a mass demonstration where we call in our resources. And then they are answerable to me and I authorize that personally.

Below the grade of deputy chief, at the inspector, captain and lieutenant level, every hour that they work they must seek authorization to work that prior to working it and it is then certified and reported to me weekly.

Mr. FAZIO. That is from the Deputy Chief they get that certification?

Chief LANGLEY. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. FAZIO. The bureau chief.

Chief LANGLEY. The bureau commander, yes, sir.

Mr. FAZIO. In other words, it is monitored carefully, they do it only when necessary and not as a routine matter?

Chief LANGLEY. Absolutely. And we have worked very hard. The figures are improving. Initially it has been construed or considered to be a benefit. It is viewed that way. And it is a matter of me convincing them and supervising them and directing them and channeling them into cooperating.

Mr. FAZIO. And as you indicated, at least some of the personnel are governed by a system that allows them to be compensated for that, rather than having to take it as time off, right?

Chief LANGLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. FAZIO. Not everyone has to take time off. So it was in effect a bonus, financial bonus?

Chief LANGLEY. It was a benefit, yes sir.

Mr. FAZIO. Was it the Senate personnel who were required to take time or the House? I have forgotten. Wasn't there a distinction here?

Mr. Russ. No.

Mr. FAZIO. It was uniform?

Chief LANGLEY. Yes. It is within the department.

Mr. FAZIO. Okay. And it is uniformly changing, which is the good

news.

Mr. Russ. Absolutely.

Mr. FAZIO. Was that money that was in addition to their salaries, so that they were not faced with deductions and factors of that sort, or was it factored in so that it would be deducted for taxes and Social Security, et cetera.

Chief LANGLEY. It wasn't a monetary compensation, Mr. Chairman. It was hour-for-hour compensatory time.

Mr. FAZIO. So you didn't make more money, you simply worked less time. There was no monetary compensation.

Chief LANGLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. Russ. The only thing when you are talking about monetary compensation, we had people who retired but did not go off the payroll for as long as a year. And so even though they were retired, they were paid full salary for that time instead of retirement

Mr. FAZIO. So it was possible to roll it forward to what extent? You said something earlier that I didn't catch. How many hours a year?

Chief LANGLEY. We have a ceiling set now, Mr. Chairman, of 240 hours.

Mr. Russ. Which is about a month.

Mr. FAZIO. No more than that. Use it or lose it.

Chief LANGLEY. I just lost 150 hours.

Mr. FAZIO. You weren't getting compensated anyway. Others now below the lieutenant level, I guess, are still allowed to accumulate compensatory time.

Mr. Russ. Everybody was, Chief on down.

Mr. FAZIO. Under current rules, though, below lieutenant is still allowed to do it. But you can't roll forward more than, how many hours?

Chief LANGLEY. Two hundred and forty.

Mr. FAZIO. Two hundred and forty. So to get that full year, you would have to max out and roll it forward for 12 years to be in a position

Mr. Russ. No. You get 240, period.

Mr. FAZIO. Not per year.

Mr. Russ. You can't roll it over.

Chief LANGLEY. It is a ceiling.

Mr. Russ. It is a ceiling.

Mr. FAZIO. Okay. So the captains and inspectors are now in a position where they are benefitting from at least having the opportunity to incur this, even though they are not getting, as you would indicate, quite as much under the higher scrutiny that you are providing?

Chief LANGLEY. Yes, sir. We have watch commander obligation or program where, in my absence, in off hours, late evening hours and weekends and holidays, we have to have command personnel here. And that occurs on holidays and their days off. And when they do that, they earn comp time for that. For a Joint Session, a State of the Union Message, an inaugural, a major demonstration, only where necessary we would award them compensatory time if we worked them on their day off for that.

Mr. FAZIO. Do we get to a point, and I am just asking this without really thinking it is true, where you need more top-level personnel in order not to provide as much comp time as penciled out is almost equivalent, dollars and cents? I mean, if we had a few more people, we wouldn't have to give comp to other people? Could we justify hiring additional or promoting to higher ranks, additional leadership personnel? Would that pay for itself if we didn't need comp time?

Chief LANGLEY. Mr. Chairman, I don't have an answer, I haven't studied that yet. I will.

I have currently under review a reorganization of the watch commander's office to assign individuals as a regular tour of duty midnight and evening shifts, weekends and holidays, so that we could hopefully eliminate, under most circumstances, the need for compensatory time for that. I am looking at that, and Inspector Gross

Mr. FAZIO. When is the change? What is the grade and the rank? Chief LANGLEY. The Chief does not earn comp time under any circumstance, nor does the Assistant Chief. The Deputy Chief, which is a bureau commander level, will only work it on my authorization on his day off or her day off, or for a Joint Session, State of the Union, a mass demonstration where we call in our resources. And then they are answerable to me and I authorize that personally.

Below the grade of deputy chief, at the inspector, captain and lieutenant level, every hour that they work they must seek authorization to work that prior to working it and it is then certified and reported to me weekly.

Mr. FAZIO. That is from the Deputy Chief they get that certification?

Chief LANGLEY. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. FAZIO. The bureau chief.

Chief LANGLEY. The bureau commander, yes, sir.

Mr. Fazio. In other words, it is monitored carefully, they do it only when necessary and not as a routine matter?

Chief LANGLEY. Absolutely. And we have worked very hard. The figures are improving. Initially it has been construed or considered to be a benefit. It is viewed that way. And it is a matter of me convincing them and supervising them and directing them and channeling them into cooperating.

Mr. FAZIO. And as you indicated, at least some of the personnel are governed by a system that allows them to be compensated for that, rather than having to take it as time off, right?

Chief LANGLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. FAZIO. Not everyone has to take time off. So it was in effect a bonus, financial bonus?

Chief LANGLEY. It was a benefit, yes sir.

Mr. FAZIO. Was it the Senate personnel who were required to take time or the House? I have forgotten. Wasn't there a distinction here?

Mr. Russ. No.

Mr. FAZIO. It was uniform?

Chief LANGLEY. Yes. It is within the department.

Mr. FAZIO. Okay. And it is uniformly changing, which is the good

news.

Mr. Russ. Absolutely.

Mr. FAZIO. Was that money that was in addition to their salaries, so that they were not faced with deductions and factors of that sort, or was it factored in so that it would be deducted for taxes and Social Security, et cetera.

Chief LANGLEY. It wasn't a monetary compensation, Mr. Chairman. It was hour-for-hour compensatory time.

Mr. FAZIO. So you didn't make more money, you simply worked less time. There was no monetary compensation.

Chief LANGLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. Russ. The only thing when you are talking about monetary compensation, we had people who retired but did not go off the payroll for as long as a year. And so even though they were retired, they were paid full salary for that time instead of retirement

Mr. FAZIO. So it was possible to roll it forward to what extent? You said something earlier that I didn't catch. How many hours a year?

Chief LANGLEY. We have a ceiling set now, Mr. Chairman, of 240 hours.

Mr. Russ. Which is about a month.

Mr. FAZIO. No more than that. Use it or lose it.

Chief LANGLEY. I just lost 150 hours.

Mr. FAZIO. You weren't getting compensated anyway. Others now below the lieutenant level, I guess, are still allowed to accumulate compensatory time.

Mr. Russ. Everybody was, Chief on down.

Mr. FAZIO. Under current rules, though, below lieutenant is still allowed to do it. But you can't roll forward more than, how many hours?

Chief LANGLEY. Two hundred and forty.

Mr. FAZIO. Two hundred and forty. So to get that full year, you would have to max out and roll it forward for 12 years to be in a position

Mr. Russ. No. You get 240, period.

Mr. FAZIO. Not per year.

Mr. Russ. You can't roll it over.

Chief LANGLEY. It is a ceiling.

Mr. Russ. It is a ceiling.

Mr. FAZIO. Okay. So the captains and inspectors are now in a position where they are benefitting from at least having the opportunity to incur this, even though they are not getting, as you would indicate, quite as much under the higher scrutiny that you are providing?

Chief LANGLEY. Yes, sir. We have watch commander obligation or program where, in my absence, in off hours, late evening hours and weekends and holidays, we have to have command personnel here. And that occurs on holidays and their days off. And when they do that, they earn comp time for that. For a Joint Session, a State of the Union Message, an inaugural, a major demonstration, only where necessary we would award them compensatory time if we worked them on their day off for that.

Mr. FAZIO. Do we get to a point, and I am just asking this without really thinking it is true, where you need more top-level personnel in order not to provide as much comp time as penciled out is almost equivalent, dollars and cents? I mean, if we had a few more people, we wouldn't have to give comp to other people? Could we justify hiring additional or promoting to higher ranks, additional leadership personnel? Would that pay for itself if we didn't need comp time?

Chief LANGLEY. Mr. Chairman, I don't have an answer, I haven't studied that yet. I will.

I have currently under review a reorganization of the watch commander's office to assign individuals as a regular tour of duty midnight and evening shifts, weekends and holidays, so that we could hopefully eliminate, under most circumstances, the need for compensatory time for that. I am looking at that, and Inspector Gross

point and I am optimistic that we can do it again. We will have to rob Peter to pay Paul.

We don't want to ask for any more executive level people. We think we can do it from within.

Mr. FAZIO. You think you can do it by reorganizing.

Mr. Russ. It is a unique operation, because in a way we are kind of held hostage sometimes. I mean, we don't control our environment. When we had the Klu Klux Klan here, we had to protect 24 individuals from 15,000 people. Pro Choice, Right to Life, whatever. Hundreds of thousands of people will converge on the Capitol, and it requires a lot of man-hours, a lot of planning. And the Capitol Police are not always able to budget for six months and to say exactly what our expenditures will be, because we don't know who is coming. But they all come here. And they all want to come here. We sign a stack of permits every day from one person to 200,000 people. And it is becoming the place to be. And I have to take my hat off to the Capitol Police, because it really is very difficult to plan when we never know what we are going to be faced with from one weekend to the next.

Mr. Fazio: I have a question I will submit to be answered for the record.

[The question and answer follows:]

Question. How many compensatory hours did each Assistant Chief earn in FY 1991-each Deputy Chief-each Inspector-each Captain? Also provide figures for FY 1992 to date.

Note: Does not include personnel who teminated employment in FY91 or FY92 and those who are currently on terminal leave.