to any extent at all, we are going to have to have an enormous tax increase or we are going to have to cut spending and that reduction in spending, in which we hope to assist, should be as intelligent and careful as possible so that we don't destroy services which are essential.

ANTICIPATE REDUCTIONS THROUGH EFFORTS OF SENATE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE

Chairman ELLENDER. Of course, the Appropriations Committee is going to do a lot of that. As chairman of it, I have started going back of the scene sometimes. What I hope to do is to use our present force during the holidays and during congressional adjournment to go behind the scenes and into the Defense Department and see what is going on, to the State Department, Commerce, Interior, and learn how they make up their budgets. I think that will be helpful. The moment they know they are being watched, I think they will be more careful. So, these studies are being made from every angle. As you know, I have been not exactly opposed to the creation of some of these committees but the way they mushroom.

COMMITTEE PRESENT FUNDING AND PERSONNEL INCREASE

You are spending $640,860.

Senator PROXMIRE. That is correct.

I guess, Mr. Chairman, we will consider it.

Senator HOLLINGS. We certainly will.

If you had the extra $95,000, how many clerical and professional would you employ?

Senator PROXMIRE. We would employ at least two additional professionals. We need at least one secretary and possibly two.

DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE OVERRUNS AND VALUE AND COST OF ECONOMISTS

Senator HOLLINGS. You have to make better cost estimates than that. You have been going over the Pentagon for cost overruns. You have gone between 20 percent and 30 percent in overruns in two

statements.

Senator PROXMIRE. Economists, good economists, come high. They are very valuable. They are the best paid professional there is, paid more than lawyers, accountants or any other professional. If we are going to do an efficient job, we have to get good people. If we can get three people and one or two clerical personnel, we will do it. If you want us to give you a precise

We will give it to you.

Senator HOLLINGS. If it were $200 million or $300 million over at the Pentagon, possibly $400 million, we would have a whole afternoon of hearings up and down. I really think you have saved the Government, in all seriousness, a fortune. While we still differ on the SST and some other programs, I am confident that the C-5A hearings and other influences which you and the committee have brought to bear have been beneficial.

PROGRAM SUPPORT AND MORE DETAILED INFORMATION

Mr. Chairman, I like the enthusiasm to accomplish expenditure reductions, which is presently a rare commodity in the Congress. I believe better results would be obtained by making more funds available to this committee and, if necessary, reducing other requests. It has established responsibilities, and has demonstrated its ability to function effectively insofar as possible with its present staff. I think Senator Proxmire has demonstrated the requirement for expanding the committee's effort in priority evaluation and program analysis, and for the personnel necessary to that effort.

I commend the Senator. I will certainly try to support his request. I want to know what you are buying. I can't be selling Senator Ellender on simply two or three professionals.

Senator PROXMIRE. We will make a commitment on the precise number of professionals and clerical personnel.

Chairman ELLENDER. Give us all the people.

Senator PROXMIRE. We now have 12 professionals. We have 14 clerical personnel. We will tell you what we are asking for. (The information follows:)

Hon. ERNEST F. HOLLINGS,

JUNE 9, 1971.

Chairman, Subcommittee on Legislative Branch Appropriations, Committee on Appropriations, United States Senate, Washington, D.C.

DEAR ERNEST: In response to your request at the hearing this morning I am presenting the breakdown of the $95,000 increase which we have requested. As indicated this morning, it is very difficult to stick to a precise salary level for economists. What we have done in the past is to pay salaries commensurate with the training and experience of the particular incumbent. I mention this because I would like some latitude in that respect.

LIBRARY OF CONGRESS

STATEMENT OF DR. L. QUINCY MUMFORD, LIBRARIAN OF CON

GRESS

ACCOMPANIED BY:

JOHN G. LORENZ, DEPUTY LIBRARIAN OF CONGRESS;

MRS. ELIZABETH E. HAMER, ASSISTANT LIBRARIAN OF CON-
GRESS;

WILLIAM J. WELSH, DIRECTOR, PROCESSING DEPARTMENT;
PAUL L. BERRY, DIRECTOR, REFERENCE DEPARTMENT;
CARLETON W. KENYON, ACTING LAW LIBRARIAN;

F. E. CROXTON, DIRECTOR, ADMINISTRATIVE DEPARTMENT;
GEORGE D. CARY, DEPUTY REGISTER OF COPYRIGHTS;
LESTER S. JAYSON, DIRECTOR, CONGRESSIONAL RESEARCH
SERVICE;

NORMAN BECKMAN, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, CONGESSIONAL SERV-
ICE;

EDMOND L. APPLEBAUM, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR FOR ACQUISI-
TIONS AND OVERSEAS OPERATIONS, PROCESSING DEPART-
MENT;

FRAZER G. POOLE, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR FOR PRESERVATION,
ADMINISTRATIVE DEPARTMENT;

ROBERT S. BRAY, CHIEF, DIVISION FOR THE BLIND AND PHYS-
ICALLY HANDICAPPED;

PAUL R. REIMERS, COORDINATOR OF INFORMATION SYSTEMS;
WILLIAM W. ROSSITER, CHIEF, FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT OF-
FICE; AND

DONALD C. CURRAN, BUDGET OFFICER

INTRODUCTION OF ASSOCIATES

Senator HOLLINGS. Today, we will examine the budget estimates of the Library of Congress.

We are pleased to welcome the Librarian of Congress, Dr. Mumford, and his associates.

Dr. Mumford, you can introduce your associates for the purpose of the record. Then you may proceed with your statement, please. Dr. MUMFORD. Shall I do it verbally at the moment?

Senator HOLLINGS. Yes; that will be fine.

Dr. MUMFORD. Mr. John G. Lorenz, the Deputy Librarian.

Mrs. Elizabeth E. Hamer, Assistant Librarian.

Mr. William J. Welsh, Director of the Processing Department.

Mr. Paul L. Berry, Director of the Reference Department.

Mr. Carleton W. Kenyon, Acting Law Librarian.

Mr. F. E. Croxton, the Director of the Administrative Department. Mr. George Cary, the Deputy Register of Copyrights.

Mr. Lester S. Jayson, the Director of the Congressional Research Service.

Mr. Edmond L. Applebaum, Assistant Director of the Processing Department.

Mr. Frazer G. Poole, the Assistant Director for Preservation in the Administrative Department.

Mr. Robert Bray, the Chief of the Division for the Blind and Physically Handicapped.

Mr. Paul R. Reimers, the Coordinator of Information Systems. Mr. William W. Rossiter, the Chief of Financial Management Office.

Mr. Donald Curran, the budget officer.

Senator HOLLINGS. Thank you very much.

SUMMARY TABLES AND JUSTIFICATIONS

I will insert in the hearing record the summary tables appearing on pages 1-4 of the justifications. These tables indicate a total request under all heads of $72,389,000, an increase of $18,867,877 over the 1971 revised appropriation. In addition, 827 new positions are requested throughout the Library, bringing the total number of positions in fiscal year 1972 to 3,891, if allowed. We will discuss these as we examine the justifications.

I will insert at this point in the record page A-2 of the justifications, which reflects the total funds available from all sources-appropriations, gift and trust funds, reimbursements, and advances. These total, for fiscal year 1972, $150,985,801.

(The tables and justifications follow:)