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| Proceedings and Debates in PARLIAMENT. [xxxiv. 727.]

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After a motion was made in the Houfe of Commons, and agreed to, for an anfwer to his Majesty's fpeech, Lord North moved, 1. That a committee of the whole Houle do take into confideration the prefent fcarcity of all kinds of grain, and the moft probable means of remedying the evils that may arife therefrom. 2. That this Houfe do take into confideration the prefent ftate of the East India company, and that a committee of fecreey be appointed by them for that purpofe, confifting of thirteen perfons, to be chofen by ballot. The firit motion was agreed to unanimously; the second after afhort debate.

On the latter motion fpeeches were made to the following purport.

Lord North. The Eaft-India company claims the attention of parliament on two accounts; as a fovereign and politic, and as a great commercial body of British fubjects. In the former capacity, they add to the revenues of the nation, a large fare of the revenues of their territorial acquifitions in the Eaft; and in the latter, they increase the national wealth by their extenfive trade. The expediency of uniting the commerce with the politi cal power has been attended with unforefeen confequences, which have occafioned fome imbarraffment in the complicated affairs in which the company is engaged; the directors have therefore applied to government for relief; they defire to fubmit the ftate of their affairs to inspection. But as it would be highly improper to expofe to all the world the fecret and confidential transactions of the company, for the fake of a temporary rehef in money-matters, I have therefore moved, that a few members only be appointed to enter upon the inquiry, on whofe report the House may rely for the neceffary information.

Mr Huffey. It is the practice of minifters at all times, to conceal from the public eye, the true ftate of public affairs, that the few who are let into the fecret, may have opportunities of profiting by the ignorance of the many. By thus employing a fecret committee in this bufinefs, parliament, inftead of being able to fet all men upon a level with respect to VOL. XXXV.

the difpofal or purchase of property in the company's ftock, will itfelf be made the dupe of a minifterial junto, and be made to believe, not what is true, but what the minifter may think proper to lay before them: I am, therefore, for an open committee of the whole Houfe.

Lord North. The disclosure of the company's fecrets, by the mode of inquiry adopted in the laft feffions, has been complained of, as the principal cause of the iniquitous tranfactions fo ruinous to the company's credit that have fince taken place. It is for this reafon that a more confined mode of inquiry is now propofed. It is only the external credit of the company that is affected: for as to internal ftrength and vigour, I am perfuaded they are in full health.

Mr Mackwort. I have the highest opinion of the Noble Lord's intentions, but differ from him in the mode of proceeding. In the first place, the name of a fecret committee has fomething in it that will ever create fufpicion; and in the next, the number propofed is too fmall to trace out the truth in the com plicated maze of error and misreprefentation that will naturally be laid before them. In the multitude of counfel there is fafety. I am for a committee of the whole House.

Gen. Burgoyne, who ftood up to vindicate the late committee, of which he had been chairman, from thofe afperfions which he imagined had been obliquely thrown on it by Lord North. The General expatiated largely upon what had been done by the felect committee of laft year; and contended, that the means now propofed were inadequate to the purposes that inquiry was firit fet on foot to effect. As I am (continued he) the perfon who moved for a felect and open committee to inquire into the EaftIndia company's affairs, I think myself in fome measure called upon to rife on this occafion, and to acquaint the House, that to-morrow 1 intend to move the Houfe for its revival. Understanding that a motion for a fecret committee was this day to be made, I naturally conceived, that it was a tacit disapprobation of, or at leaft an oblique reflection upon, the mode of proceeding adopted last seffion. Now I'muft fay, and it is but what I owe to my affeffors on that occafion, that, however unworthy the prefident

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Lord North. villany, nor the reward of innocence, is the object of the prefent inquiry. All that is intended is, to come at a juft ftate of the company's prefent exigencies, and to grant fuch relief as may enable the company to furmount their difficulties. The charges of delinquency may be proceeded upon hereafter. He added, that he had told Gen. Burgoyne, he would not oppose the revival of the select committee, and was refolved to abide by his word.

Neither the detection of

Gov. Johrflone. The name of a fecret committee is rather ominous; yet I thall vote for the question, not from any thing that has been urged in its favour, but becaufe the company's diftreffes require immediate relief. It was a fecret committee at the India-house that brought on this imbarraiment and a fecret committee of parliament may be neceffary to heal the breach.

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The motion was agreed to without a divifion; a fecret committee of thirteen; balloted for Nov. 28. were, on report, appointed on the 30th; and the select committee of the former feflion were of new appointed [xxxiv. 633.]; the mimutes of whofe proceedings are inserted entire in our former volume.

might be, the virtue and abilities of the other members were fuch as conducted the business intrusted to the committee on the moft public and difinterested plan. Never was there a body of men who act ed with more coolnefs, deliberation, and attention. And if this committee is in tended to fuperfede it, I cannot help thinking, that it will be attended with more harm than good. I have many objections to a fecret committee; but yet I will not vote at all in this cafe. This is the principle on which I a&t. It is univerfally allowed, and indeed it is clearly proved, that the Eaft-India company is rotten to the very core. All is equally unfound; and you cannot lay your finger on a fingle healthy fpot whereon to begin the application of a remedy. In the Eaft the laws of fociety, the laws of nature, have been enormously violated. Oppreffion in every fhape has ground the faces of the poor defenceles natives; and tyranny in her bloodiets form has ftalked abroad. The laws of England have lain mate and neglected,, and nothing was feen but the arbitrary caprice of defpotifm. Every fanction of civil juftice, every maxim of political wisdom, all laws human and divine, have been trampled under foot, and fet at nought. At home there has been egregious mifmanagement, and variety of roguery.-mittee on the high price of provifions, The evils being fo extentive and fo multifarious, the most extenfive inquiry is wanted. Could therefore a hundred committees be established, they would hardly be equal to the task of inveftigating the various crimes and mifdemeanors, the multiplied evils that lurk in that corrupted body. Why then fhould I oppofe this committee? I will not oppose it; though it seems ftrange to pals over the enormities of the Eaft, and to inflitute a minute inquiry into the petty larcenies of Leadenhall. Let me not, however, be misunderstood, as if accufation, not redress, was my object. My first object, when, unconne&ed with any party, uninfluenced by any motive but humanity and a fenfe of duty, I propoted the ettablishment of the felect committee, was the removal of the misfortunes under which Bengal laboured, and in which I forefaw this country would finally be involved. If in the course of the inquiry there fhould appear any crime, which I fhould think it incumbent upon me, as a member of parliament, to impeach, I am not a man to fhrink from my duty.

The Commons were often in a com

Mr Onflow, from this committee, reported feveral refolutions Nov. 27. al ready inferted [xxxiv. 632.]; on which bills were brought in, which received the royal affent on the 4th, 14th, and 24th of December. [xxxiv. 687, 8.1

Witneffes were examined before them, Dec. 1. chiefly three; the two firft in the corn-trade, the laft in the excife.

Mr Smith called to the bar.

Grey Cooper, Efq; What may have been the average growth of barley for twenty or thirty years palt? ——— Mr Smith. From 4,500,000 to 4,600,000 quarters annually.

ry?

G. C. The confumption in the distille-
S. From 135,000 quarters to

150,000.

G..C. Is the quantity ufed in the diftillery greater or lets than formerly?S. Lefs confiderably.

Lord North. Would stopping the distillery much affect the price of barley, or materially ferve the poor? - S. Nei ther the one nor the other. Barley might be 6 d. a-quarter cheaper, not a fhilling.

G. C.

G. C. The quantity, the quality, and price, of last year's barley? S. The quality, inferior to the quantity; the price uncertain,-from 27 to 32.

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G. C. The hogs maintained by the difillers? S. Unable to decide; 10,000.- A member of the House referred to [Sir J. Mawbey].

G. C. Suppofe the diftillery flopt, the quantity of barley to feed that number of hogs is required? S. About 30,000 quarters.

GC. Which is moft healthful, wheat or barley bread? - S. Barley-bread has certainly most nourishment; and the difufe of barley-bread among the poor one means of the prefent dearth.

Speaker. Is or is not a pound of wheatfour equal to a pound of barley-meal, in point of nourishment?- S. It is; but an acre of land will produce half as much more barley than wheat.

Lord North. Was as much barley fown laft year as formerly ? - S. Certainly. Lord North. And as much produced? -S. Nearly, but not fo well got in. Mr Sawbridge. Can barley unfit for the brewery, be used in the diftillery S. M certainly.

Mr Prefcot. Are you converfant in the afize of bread? -S. No,

Mr Th. Forrefter called to the bar. He was afked questions to the fame effect, and anfwered them nearly in the fame manner: only he differed in the price of barley, which he faid was from 325 to 35 s. a-quarter; and in the effect that stopping the diftillery would have upon the price, which he rated at 28. a-quarter.

Sir Jof. Mawbey being asked in his place as to the number of hogs fattened by the diftillers, faid, about 30,000.

Mr Cockfedge, belonging to the excife, being examined as to the quantity of malt ufed in the diftillery, was not provided to fay. He was afked other queftions, but he was equally unprovided

to fav.

It being the opinion of thefe witneffes that putting a ftop to the diftillation from barley would be but a very inconfiderable advantage, either to the brewery, or to the poor, Lord North took occafion to inform the Houfe how materially the revenue would be affected by the prohibition, without a probability of the poor's being fubftantially benefited by it. The produce of the distillery last year, he faid, amounted to upwards of 500,000 I.

50,000l. of which only arofe from the duty on fpirits, diftilled from melaffes; the remaining 450,000l. therefore, he thought, would be a very alarming de falcation of the public revenue, at a time when we have great reafon to fear the lofs of a fum little fhort of it, fhould the affairs of the Eaft-India company compel them to with-hold the fum they had ftipulated to pay to government.

Dec. 3. Mr Farrer called to the bar. Gov. Pownall. Your opinion of the caufe of the prefent high price of provifions? F. The affize is one caufe of the dearnefs of bread, owing to the equivocal fignification of the word houfeh ld. Household flour and houfehold bread are oppofite terms; the firft, meaning the belt flour; the laft, the worft bread. A fecond kind of bread therefore cannot be made without lofs, and a worfe fort the poor will not eat.

Gov. P. If flour is imported from America, can it be mixed with our floor according to the late act? F. It cannot. I imported 2000 barrels, and except a fmall quantity fold at a private fale, was forced to fhip it again for other parts.

Gov. P. Would not quantities of flour imported from America be of use to the poor? F. While the prefent affize fublifts, none at all.

Gov. P. Were the act of affize altered, would the bakers be enabled to bake fecond at a profit? F. Certainly.

Mr Onjlow. Then the poor can receive no benefit from importation till a new act is made? F. Not in the leaft.

Gor. P. Would the flour from America, mixed, make as wholefome bread as all our own? F. To the full. Mr F. produced two loaves fo mixed, which fome members tafted, and approved, which he declared might be made 4 d. in a peck cheaper than that now fold. Or dered to withdraw.

Mr Ch. Smith was ordered to the bar. He was going to enter upon a full ex planation of the difadvantages of the late act of affize, but was interrupted by Mr Pownall, who moved for a felect committee to inquire particularly into that matter, which was unanimoully agreed to.

A report from this felect committee was received, Dec. 8.; and on the 10th the whole-hcufe committee examined more witneffes.

- Nir Free, a male-factor. Mr Huffey. What are the prices of

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Mr H. Do you remember the difference it made on the laft prohibition? A. Not felt the first and fecond year, but the third it fell 9 or 10s. a-quarter.

Lord North. Do you recollect what crop we had in 1757? for that was the time the diftillers were ftopt. A. A very indifferent one.

Ld N. Do you recollect what crop we had the third year, when it fell fo much? A. A very fine one for all forts of grain. Ld N. Don't you think the price fell in confequence of that fine feafon? A. I believe it did, my Lord.

Mr Hankey, a malister, and malt-factor. Mr Haley. What may have been the average-price of barley for fome years paft?

A. From 29 to 32 s. a-quarter. Mr H. What is the caufe of the prefent high price of barley? 4. The crop has been indifferent in quality as well as quantity, and the farmers with-hold a part of it from market.

Mr Gafcoigne. Is there not much damaged barley that will not malt? A. Very little in the counties of Hertford, Effex, and Cambridge.

Mr Huffy. What difference would ftopping the diftillery make in the price of barley, do you think? A. About 4 s. a-quarter.

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Mr P. What difference will stopping the diftillery make in the price of barley? A. Four or five fhillings a-quarter.

Mr P. Should the diftillery be stopt, would not the farmers keep back their barley from market, unlefs they could fell it at the prefent price? A. That would have but little effect.

Mr P. Your reasons for thinking so? A. Because barley in the best seasons is in a great mealure unfit for malting after the firft year; and if brought to market the fecond year, can only be fold to the millers or the distillers.

Mr P. Is there not a great deal of the prefent year's crop unfit for malting? A. Very little but what may be made use of in the brewery one way or other. Mr Combrune.

Mr Cooper. What effect do you think that ftopping the diftillery would have on the price of barley? A. Not a penny.

Mr Huffey. That is ftrange indeed! You are a great calculator, Mr Com+ brune: by what method of calculation are you led to that opinion? A. We have rules drawn from experience that we are governed by. Suppose, for in ftance, the average-price of barley in a plentiful year to be 15 s. and the ave rage-produce five millions of quarters. In a failing year, if the produce is a tenth lefs, that is, only 4,500,000 quarters, it will make two tenths or 3 s. a-quarter difference in the price of barley; if the crop is two tenths deficient, or only four millions of quarters, it will make four tenths, or 6 s. a-quarter difference in the price; if the produce falls ftill lower than that, it will, for every tenth fhort, make eight tenths difference in the price; fo that if three millions of quar ters only, inftead of five millions of quar ters, are produced, the price of barley will then be 24 s. a-quarter more than the average-price in a plentiful year, or 39 s. a-quarter, inftead of 15 s. And this rule of calculation will hold good whether the diftillery be ftopt or not. - Mr Combrune's manner of calculation was not clearly understood; and a member faid ironically, that as the House was without a rule, he wished Mr Com. brune's might be adopted.

Lord North. From the evidence that has been given by the witnesses that have been examined, I hope the Houfe is fatisfied of one fact; and that is, that they have offered nothing that can be depend ed upon. One gentleman tells you, that

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the difference will be four fhillings, another five, another one, and the laft tells you not a penny. All these accounts are mere conjectures, and uncertain in their very nature. Let us, Sir, be regulated by the experience of facts, and examine what effect the ftoppage had in the year 1757. The distillers, at that time, confumed double the quantity; and it appears that no material alteration enfued. If then, when the diftillers ufed double the quantity, no benefit arofe either to the brewer or the poor, I hope no gentleman can fuppofe the leaft benefit can accrue from half. The revenue will fuffer a very great lofs; no less than 300,000l. allowing the melaffes to produce 250,000l. which is far from probable. Then, Sir, from thefe facts, which fully prove that to material advantage can poffibly happen to the poor on the ftopping the diftillery, I move, That it is the opinion of this committee, that as the prohibition of diftilling spirits from wheat, wheatflour, and meal, is continued, that a prohibition from barley would be prejudicial to the revenue, without benefiting the poor.

Mr Onflow read the motion. Mr Huffey. The Noble Lord is certainly more clear in thefe matters than I am; but I with he would withdraw his motion till after the holidays, as we fhall by that time receive better information. The Noble Lord, even by his own argument, will have a greater revenue than what the melaffes will produce: for if the diftillery be ftopped, the brewers will neceffarily confume more malt; and the calculation is, that the quarter of malt ufed by the diftiller is rated at 31. that of the brewer at 1 1. per quarter: joined to this, suppose we allow for an additional quantity of hops. However, all this is upon fuppofition; but I hearti ly with the Noble Lord would not come to any refolution as yet.

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Lord North. It plainly appears, from the fate of the revenue at the last stop, that the brewers did not confume more, at leaft not of any confequence, of malt. This motion does not at all interrupt or diffolve the committee; but I think it neceffary, after having examined witDeffes two different days, that the people fhould know what refolution we are come to, and that the brewers and difillers, who are at a ftand, may know how to proceed. The motion was read; I

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