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would humbly submit to your lordships' judgment, whether the motion I am about to propose be not a most necessary one; not as a retrospective one, implying the least degree of censure, but merely cautionary, in order to prevent a return of the same fatal evils. I repeat again, that I do not desire to know the number of men voted with an intention of comparing the estimate with the returns; nor to enter into any enquiry directed to have the wrong information, by which ministers have confessed themselves deceived and misled, traced to its source: all I wish to know is, that general state of things, and those facts, which, while it will warn us of the difficulties we have to encounter with, will at the same time point out the best means of obviating or surmounting them. That can never be effected so well, as by learning the true state of the force preparing against us; comparing it with our own abilities and immediate resources, and on the whole coming to such mature resolutions, respecting future measures, whether of coercion or conciliation, as may be best suited to the dignity, national justice, and permanent interests of this country. His grace concluded with mov

dress to his Majesty, humbly desiring, that his Majesty would give directions to the proper officer to lay before that House an account of the number of forces serving in America previous to the commencement of hostilities. He explained the reasons upon which his motion was founded; and said, he thought such a motion extremely necessary at this time, when not only the nation at large was kept in such profound ignorance, but even the ancient hereditary council, his Majesty's great constitutional advisers, knew no more of what measures were intended to be pursued than they did of what was transacting in any foreign cabinet in Europe. He reminded their lordships of his sentiments on a former occasion, relative to the nature and extent of the information; that he did not want to know the detail, nor the particular means intended to be employed to give their measures success. He did not want, in short, cabinet information, but such as was fit and safe for ministry to disclose, and necessary for parliament to know, in order to direct them in their future deliberations. We know, said his grace, that an army was voted last session; we know that an army, such as it was, commenced hostilies; we have heard, by common report, that consi-ing, "That an humble Address be prederable reinforcements have been sent since that period: we have been informed, through the same channel, that the troops met with a severe repulse in their first at tempt to subdue the natives, and that the second, in which there was a kind of trial of skill and courage, was not in its consequences far short of an open defeat. We do not want to be told, that from that last action to this instant, the royal army has remained cooped up in the town of Boston, mouldering away by sickness and famine, and almost daily waiting for its fate, that of being destroyed or made prisoners by a force infinitely superior in point of numbers and strength. In such an alarming crisis, what are we to do? The noble lords who have the direction of his Majesty's councils have ingenuously confessed, that they have been deceived. Apologies of various kinds have been made: explanations have followed those apologies. We have been told of ill-founded information, false reasonings, mistaken conclusions. Oblique censures have been thrown out upon the commanders both by sea and land. Now, my lords, in such a state of darkness and uncertainty, such charges, such blunders, such mistakes, such impuțed negligence or incapacity, or both, I

sented to his Majesty, to desire, that he will be graciously pleased to direct the proper officers to lay before this House, the state of the land forces in North Ame rica, according to the last returns, which preceded the commencement of hostilities there in April last, specifying as well the numbers of officers and men effective and fit for duty; as also their distribution at that time, with the numbers stationed at each post; and likewise the numbers of land forces, both of complete regiments, of drafts from other corps, and of recruits sent to America since that time from different parts of the King's dominions, specifying the dates of the different orders for each separate embarkation."

Earl Gower. I rise thus early to give a direct negative to the motion; because his grace has manifestly proceeded on a mistake. He supposes this country in a state of absolute tranquillity, whereas it is confessedly in a state of war; disclosing, therefore, our plans of military operations, might be productive of the worst consequences. I have it from an officer of eminence on the spot, that whatever measures are determined on at this side the water, are known in the rebel camp much earlier than any account of them reaches the

[946 King's army. What, then, will be the mined on in this country. He observed, consequence? But that whatever infor- | if the duke's motion was intended to reach mation may be brought to light by this no further than it professed, it might be motion, and several others which I dare answered with great safety, and with very say will follow, if it should meet with your little trouble. The number of effective lordships' approbation, the rebels will be men in each regiment was well known; apprised of. The plans we intend to pur- the number of battalions was 17; there sue will thereby be made known, and the were upwards of 300 sick in the hospitals, provincials furnished with the readier means and about 800 non effective, which two of defeating them. Besides, I cannot see last items deducted out of the returns, supwhat possible good this motion can an- posing them to be complete, would give an swer in any light, even in the strictest exact amount of the troops previous to the conformity to the sentiments the noble commencement of hostilities. There were duke declares to profess, unless he makes some detachments out at the time, but it a leading question to a string of propo- they were not very considerable; so that sitions of a similar nature, tending to lay the whole of the force, at the time the noopen the species of information which, as ble duke's motion pointed to, might be one of his Majesty's ministers, I look upon very easily ascertained. myself bound most strenuously to withhold. But, my lords, if I have very cogent reasons for pposing the motion singly on the ground I have now stated, I have still stronger motives for opposing it on principle; I mean the dangerous precedent it might establish in the further progress of this important business, that of the legislative forcing itself, and breaking in on the executive power; a mode of conducting business, which if it should ever prevail, will totally obstruct the measures of government. On the other hand, if administration is supported by the confidence of parliament, by a proper dependence and reliance that the powers entrusted to them will be exerted with suitable ability and fidelity, I make no doubt, from the present disposition of a great number of people in that country, who want only to be protected to openly avow themselves the friends of Great Britain, that this arduous affair will be finally brought to a fair, happy, and honourable issue.

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The Earl of Dartmouth was against the motion. That now, when it could be no longer doubted that we were in an actual state of war, to have the strength, number, and destination of our troops laid open to the Americans, was such an idea as he could not have thought possible for any noble lord in that House so much as to conceive. He confirmed the assertions of the noble earl who spoke last, that every fact or information called forth by this motion, would be instantly transmitted to America, and would consequently teach them to rise in their demands on one hand, or cause them to take such measures of resistance as would be most effectual towards defeating whatever might be deter[VOL. XVIII.]

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Lord Camden. The noble earl in the blue ribbon, (earl Gower) and the noble earl who spoke last, seem to oppose the present motion on two grounds; first, as it may be the means of giving intelligence to the provincials; and secondly, as this motion, should it receive your lordships' approbation, may be productive of several others directed to the same object. I heartily approve of their lordships' caution and foresight; for I believe that their lordships' fears are well founded. I dare say the noble duke, should he carry his first point, does not mean to rest his enquiry there, and proceed no further. I rather think he will go on: I am sure the present situation of affairs, both in England and America, requires that he should. The noble lords have talked of the accounts of measures agreed on in this country, being so early known in the rebel camp. should be glad to know what species of information their lordships allude to. They will not say it is parliamentary information, because no rebel camp existed at the time we last sat here, at least, so as to reach it any considerable time after parliament rose. If it be cabinet information, that is a matter we are, it seems, to have nothing to do with. But there is something extremely curious in another part of this argument: the noble lords in office tell you, that by giving an account of the number of troops in Boston and its neighbourhood, previous to the affair at Lexington, we shall furnish the rebels with intelligence of a very dangerous nature. What! Surely not, if the rebel camp be so very well informed; much less so, if the enquiry goes only to a point, I suppose well known to every man this instant within the province of Massachuset's Bay. The noble earl, so [3 P]

them of their natural rights, growing out of the constitution, confirmed by charter, and recognized by every branch of the legislature, without examination, or even without hearing. I will fairly appeal to your lordships, if there be one among you who could submit to such intolerable oppressions; nay further, if you would not all unite as one man, were you in such a situation, to oppose the execution of so lawless and unjust a power. I do not mean, my lords, to go through the whole of this business. I reserve that for some future day: I dare say I shall have many opportunities, and I pledge myself to your lordships, on that day, that I will prove Great Britain has been the aggressor; that America has only acted on the defensive, and that were I an American, and wanted a proper sense of the injuries attempted to be exercised towards me, that I should only think them justifiable so far as I wanted spirit to resist, and was conscious to myself, that I was undeserving the enjoyment of any privilege, that I was mean, cowardly, or abject enough to tamely relinquish.

lately one of his Majesty's secretaries of state, has informed us, that we are in a state of war, that secrecy is of course necessary. 1 deny that we are. Peace is still within our power; nay, we may command it. A suspension of arms on our part, if adopted in time, will secure it for us; and I may add, on our own terms. From which it is plain, as we have been the original aggressors in this business, if we obstinately persist, we are fairly answerable for all the consequences. I again repeat, what I often urged before, that I was against this unnatural war from the beginning. I was equally against every measure from the instant the first tax was proposed to this minute. When, therefore, it is insisted, that we aim only 'to defend and enforce our own rights, I positively deny it. I contend, that America has been driven, by cruel necessity, to defend her rights from the united attacks of violence, oppression, and injustice. I contend, that America has been indisputably aggrieved. Perhaps, as a domineering Englishman, wishing to enjoy the ideal benefit of such a claim, I might urge it with earnestness, and endeavour to carry my point; but if, on the other hand, I resided in America, that I felt or was to feel the effects of such manifest injustice, I certainly should resist the attempt with that degree of ardour so daring a violation of what should be held dearer than life itself, ought to enkindle in the breast of every freeman. Here, my lords, I speak as an American, or as one residing in America, who, finding himself deprived of his liberty, and his property attacked, would resist, and with all his might repel the aggressor. On the other hand, as living in this country, and subject to the laws of it, I always have, and I hope always shall, pay a proper obedience to them. But, my lords, pursuing the ideas of a native American, or a person residing in that country, what must be the sense they feel of the repeated injuries that have for a succession of years past been heaped on them? To have their property, under the idea of asserting a right to tax them, voted away by one act of parliament, and their charters, under an idea of the supreme authority of the British legislature, swept away by another vote of parliament. Thus depriving them, or rather claiming a right to dispose of every single shilling they are worth, without one of them being represented by the persons pretending to exercise this right; and thus stripping

Lord Lyttelton, after objecting to the motion, on the ground that it would be the means of conveying information to the rebels, remarked with some severity on the conduct of the noble and learned lord who spoke last. But if the present motion be objectionable, on the ground it now stands, unconnected with any other, how much more strongly ought you to resist it, when the learned lord informs you, that it is to be followed by several more of a si milar nature. This being clearly the real intention of the noble duke who made the motion, I trust, if any doubt remained relative to the confined view of the question, as it simply stands before your lordships, that this information will be a sufficient motive with you to reject it in the first in stance. The noble and learned lord, digressing from the question immediately before us, entered into a general view of matters of a much more important and weighty nature. His lordship tells you, that parliament were the first aggressors; that the Americans are indisputably ag grieved. Is this, my lords, a language fit to be endured within these walls? Are you to suffer the Acts of the British legis. lature, declared by the King, Lords, and Commons, to be branded with almost every opprobrious term that can possibly be conceived? The noble and learned lord tells you, that the parliament has

sense of the whole nation? I trust, the noble and learned lord already sees the impropriety of his conduct, how very unparliamentary it is, how disrespectful to the body of which he is a member, how injurious to parliament at large; but above all, that he will think of the consequence, and in time retract his words; otherwise he may be assured, those mischievous expressions will shortly be echoed through all the papers, and be wafted over the Atlantic to rebellious America by the first conveyance. Should the noble and learned lord refuse to retract, I shall be in the judgment of your lordships, whether or not, to avoid the consequence I have pointed out, he should not be obliged to explain himself, according to the usual and established mode of parliamentary proceeding.

acted unjustly, oppressively, nay tyrannically; that the Americans are justified in their resistance; that if he was an American, or resided there, he would be one of the first to resist. I will venture to affirm to your lordships, that if he was there, he could not effect the thousandth part of the mischief, we may fairly presume, what he has said this day will produce; for you may rest assured, that there is not a syllable of his speech that will not get into the news-papers, and consequently make its way to America. They will in those accounts find the speech of a most learned and eminent lawyer, famed in his profession, confirming them in every sentiment of rebellion and resistance to the authority of the mother-country. They will find the legislature of Great Britain charged with tyranny, oppression, and usurpation. They will find themselves branded as cowards, poltroons, and tame, abject slaves, unworthy of the liberties they enjoy, if they do not resist. The noble and learned lord, while he sets up to be so strong an advocate for liberty, says something I do not well comprehend, unless it be with a view still the more completely to blacken and vilify this country. His lordship tells you, as an overbearing and domineering Englishman, he should like to triumph and trample on the liberties of America. I do not pretend to exactly say what his native impulses be in that respect; but I will venture to assert, that he thinks very differently from the majority of this House, and the majority of this nation; neither of which want to invade the rights of America, much less trample on its liberties. The noble lord says, in the same breath, that, as an American, he would resist such an invasion. But as it is not the intention of Great Britain to do the one, so I trust she will never desist, till she obtains a full and complete obedience and submission to the exercise of her constitutional power. On a former occasion, having only said that those who were for supporting the unnatural claims of America, were in fact surrendering the rights of the British parliament into the hands of our rebellious subjects; I remember I was called to order, and severely reprehended by one or two noble lords on the other side. In my opinion I was substantially right; but allow ing it to be otherwise, how much more blame-worthy is it for the learned lord to rise and condemn acts of parliament, the laws of the land, and the constitutional

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Viscount Dudley. I think the noble and learned lord has transgressed every rule of debate I ever remember to have seen observed in this House. Not satisfied with condemning the measures of administration in general, he tells you very plainly that America has been oppressed, and Great Britain are the aggressors. He contends that resistance is justifiable, and that our ultimate views are views of tyranny and despotism. This, I confess, is speaking pretty plainly; but I presume his lordship does not mean by such palpable misrepresentations, to persuade us to adopt his opinions. On the contrary, I am satisfied, that America, in this contest, only aims at independence: and that every concession we may be induced to make, will only lay a foundation for new claims. Much stress has been laid by the noble lords on the other side, that should our present disputes with America be spun out to any length, our manufactures must be ruined. Now, my lords, I must inform you of two facts; one is, if that were the case, no person would feel the effects sooner than myself; the other, that nothing of the kind has been hitherto felt, at least in my neighbourhood, which is deeply concerned in the American trade. I live in the midst of a great manufacturing country, the trade of which depends a great deal upon their intercourse with America; and yet, I can say, from the best information, that no stagnation in any of the great manufactures has been yet felt. It is true, a want of employment among the nailors may possibly be a consequence of our present disputes with America; but if it should, I trust admi

nistration will devise some mode of alle- | I wished to avoid asking that gentleman

viating the miseries of men manifestly suffering in the cause of their country.

any questions which might probably be disagreeable, or embarrass him. Accordingly, when I came into the House, having previously drawn up a list of such questions as I thought proper to put to him, I went below the bar and delivered him the paper, desiring him to object to such as he thought proper. He kept the paper a few minutes, and returned it to me with an assurance, that the list contained not a single question he was not ready to an

The Duke of Richmond. The noble lord who spoke last has at length confessed that the effects of our American war begin to be already felt, particularly among the nailors. It is not many days since the same noble lord assured us with great confidence, that the manufactures in his neighbourhood were in a most flourishing state; that the people were fully employed; and that new channels for dis-swer. In this transaction, my lords, I posing of the commodities formerly sent to America were happily opened. What does his lordship now tell you? that a stagnation at least in one branch has commenced, and very modestly desires administration to devise some means of compensating the sufferers. This, I must own, has to me a very odd sound. We have already voted 4s. in the pound; our manufactures are on the decline, that must of course create a deficiency in the funds; the manufacturers will want employment, and something must be done for them. I think your lordships ought to consider this matter in a very serious light before you proceed a step further. The noble earl lately in office (lord Dartmouth) told us the last day we met here, that it was the fixed resolution of administration to adopt conciliatory measures. Now, what does he tell your lordships? That we are in a state of war; that secrecy is the life and essence of such a state; that we should studiously conceal what every body knows in one instance, and withhold secrets from this House long since grown stale in the rebel camp. The principle which seems to direct the policy of the noble lord, is no less worthy of animadversion. He has no information himself, his friends have none, and he will hear none. In fact, his lordship is as careful to keep every degree of information from this House, as from the generals Lee, Putnam, or Washington; for when Mr. Penn delivered him the Petition he did not think proper to ask him a single question; when Mr. Penn was examined at your lordships' bar, his lordship shewed a similar aversion to any thing which might wear the most distant appearance of looking for information. From the time that the House agreed to examine Mr. Penn, till the day he was examined, I determined to have no sort of communication with him; yet, from what had fallen from the noble earl in the blue ribbon, and the noble earl lately in office,

flattered myself that I had acted with all imaginable caution and candour. Yet what was the consequence? but that the noble earl who presides at the head of the Admiralty, charged me with previously consulting the witness, with an intention, I presume, to fabricate a particular kind of evidence on purpose to mislead this House. Such language was, in my opinion, extremely unparliamentary, and deserving of your lordships' discountenance and disapprobation: yet, after, I had explained the matter nearly in the same words I do now, what shall we say to the unjustifiable conduct of another noble lord (Lyttelton) who again repeated the same charge, mixed with a direct imputation, that the witness gave a partial testimony? But this is the noble lord, who stands up so warmly for parliamentary order and the decoruin of debate, and so severely condemns the learned lord for being guilty of what he calls a violation of it. It is true, I always hear that noble lord with infinite pleasure and delight; he speaks so finely, so harmoniously, his elocution is so charming, and his action so just and striking, that he affords me no small de gree of entertainment, scarcely Mr. Gar rick himself more; yet before the noble lord is so very ready to censure others in respect of transgressions, such as he now attributes to the learned lord, he should recollect how ready he is himself to offend in a similar manner. His lordship has la boured greatly to reconcile the learned lord's expressions to each other. Your lordships, I dare say, are already perfectly satisfied of his ability in that way. He has a knack of reconciling very strange things indeed, I hope he will be able to reconcile his conduct on the first day of the session, and the part he has since taken. I need not hope it, I may rest assured that his lordship is able to reconcile greater difficulties and contradictions than even that itself. His lordship will, how

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