"Dissentient'

1. "Because we conceive there would

NOTES of Debate on the Bill for a Tax upon Cyder, March 28, 1763. From the Original in the hand-writing of the Earl of Hardwicke. [This was the last time lord chancellor Hardwicke spoke in the House of Lords]

The Earl of Hardwicke. 1. Disagreeable option offered-Reject only extr. supply of the year-Or swallow this Bill entire and in the gross.

This Bill consists of four parts-Duty on Wine-Duty on Cyder and Perry-Method of levying the latter by Laws of Excise-Borrowing Clauses and Scheme of Loan.

Every one of them would naturally require more days to consider, than, report says, this session has to live.

Objections numberless-Impossible for metedious to your lordships-to go through them all.

Shall go upon two great lines of this Bill— 1. I look upon it as an extension and application of the Excise Laws to improper objects. 2. I look upon it as an additional land-tax upou the Cyder counties.

First Point.

All former laws; the plan of the Excise; confined to some particular trades or occupations-Do not extend to every subject, who may happen to do a particular act in the course of his family affairs.

Such persons give their names ;-voluntarily subject themselves to such laws as are, or shall be, &c.

Such dealers have shops, warehouses, outhouses, &c. distinct.

In this case every person, who makes any quantity of Cyder above, &c. is subjected.

This arises from laying the tax upon the maker, and not on the first buyer or retailer; and in this the present Bill departs from the principle on which excises were admitted.

Goes beyond any Bill that has passed except that on Hops, which is particular;

And goes beyond that great one which failed-the Bill for an inland duty on Tobacco. (State That.) Second Point.

An additional land-tax on the Cyder counties.

The fruit for making Cyder and Perry is the great produce of their farms, by which their rents are raised.

The plantations of that fruit are not confined to orchards, grow sparsim in the inclosures of grass-grounds-mow a feed off the grass

and at the proper season gather the fruitgrowing promiscuously.

For all this they pay the land tax of four shillings in the pound.

They must naturally think it very hard that these country gentlemen, after having borne the burden and heat of the day;-cheerfully contributed to support a burdensome, though successful and glorious war, should be thus rewarded by an additional land-tax, which in consequence falls particularly on them. It may be said--So is the Malt-tax.

I admit it; for the Malt-tax and many others fall upon the land; but that is common to the whole kingdom. Be it so-then this tax will be a 3d land-tax upon those counties in particular.

3. Lay aside this Bill-send up another.
Obj. Shortness of time.

Ans. An unparliamentary objection—A standing order of this House against making use of it-5th May 1568, No. 24. Read it.

What inconvenience if the session were prolonged till near Whitsuntide?

Lord Lyttelton, against. To be borne by all, in just and equal proportions, as far as possible. Obj. 1. Introducing the powers of the Excise into the houses of farmers. ·Obj. 2. Uncertainty of the produce of the tax, and deficiency of the duty.

Lord Grosvenor, con. Objects to the many different matters comprised in this Bill-complicated nature.

Earl Temple, con. This bargain was laid before the House of Commons on the 7th of March.

The annuities alone of 4 per cent. redeemable bear a præmium of 23 per cent.-And yet they have two lottery tickets besides at 3 per cent. discount with the chance of a prize-The government should have taken credit in their bargain for the advanced profit.

Earl of Halifax. This scheme brought into the House of Commons-Excise no part of it.

Earl of Bute, pro. Lord Temple has touched upon two things.

1. The Loan.

2. Tax.

Why was Cyder first thought of?

* "Lord Bute did not often speak in parliament: his delivery was very slow and solemn in allusion to which Charles Townshend, during a speech which lord Bute made on the subject of the Cyder Tax, humourously exclaimed, 'minute guns.'" Adolphus.

over new orders of men, who, by mere ignorance and inadvertency, may be subjected to the severest penalties for things done in the common, ordinary and necessary management of their farms.

"2. Because blending distinct matters in the same Money-Bills, lays this House under the utmost difficulties; since the alteration made by this House, to any parts of such Bill, may be an unavoidable obstruction to other parts of it, less liable to objection, and requiring greater expedition and dispatch: and we conceive, that to tack unto such a Bill, matters, which, for many reasons, ought to be kept separate and distinct, is destructive of all freedom of debate and all due deliberation, unparliamentary, highly derogatory to the privilege of the peers, and may be of dangerous consequence to the prerogatives of the crown.

3. "Because we apprehend that such parts of the said Bill as extend the laws of excise over the makers of Cyder and Perry, are not only injurious to the liberties of the subject, but particularly offensive to the dignity and privilege of the peers; since their houses may be visited and searched, and they themselves may incur the penalties of this Bill, to be levied upon them by justices of the peace, and commissioners of the excise: we are therefore doubly called upon to dissent from the passing of this Bill, by a due and just sense of the dignity and privilege of the peerage, and by a tender regard to the liberties and properties of the people, of which this House hath been always esteemed the hereditary and perpetual guardians.

4. "Because when we consider the great number of families, over whom and their posterities the laws of excise are extended by this Bill, the incapacity of farmers to comply with it, not only in respect to their ignorance, but to the nature of their business; the heavy penalties im

The first excise upon beer or malt,—a tax was laid upon Cyder-Continued so until 1760. It is fit a tax should be laid upon Cyder as well as Beer-

And collected by the same methods—
No Excise-man break into a dwelling house.
Produce estimated at 75,000l.

A noble duke knows the difficulty to choose proper taxes.

Duke of Newcastle, con. Different from

Beer or Ale-This laid upon the maker.

Earl of Denbigh. Is there a man who can wish that this Bill should not be committed? [VOL. XV.}

1. "Because by this Bill our fellow subjects, who from the growth of their own orchards make Cyder and Perry, are subjected to the most grievous mode of excise; whereby private houses of peers, . gentlemen, freeholders and farmers, are made liable to be entered and searched at pleasure. We deem this to be not only an intolerable oppression, affecting private property, and destructive of the peace and quiet of private families; but, to use the words of one of the first gracious acts of liberty, passed by our gracious deliverer, king William the 3rd, repealing the hearth money, "a badge of slavery."

2. Because we think we owe it to our countrymen, who have so cheerfully submitted to the great load of taxes, which have been found necessary, in support of a just, prosperous, and glorious war; by every means in our power to mark our high disapprobation of the terms upon which 3,500,000l. have been borrowed on this loan without any material alteration since in the state of the public credit; an enormous profit of above 350,000l. is already made by such persons as have been favoured with shares in this private subscription. We apprehend, that in time of peace, an open subscription had not only been the fairest, but the cheapest method of borrowing any sums, which the necessities of the public might call for. of Commons, that on the 8th of this instant, It appears to us, by the votes of the House March, this bargain was first consented to by them; whereby a redeemable annuity of four per cent. is given to certain persons, who offered to advance this loan.

[4 P]

No less than two lotteries in one year, are now, for the first time, without any urgent necessity, established in the days of peace to the no small excitement of the pernicious spirit of gaming, which cannot be too much discountenanced by every state governed by wisdom, and a sober regard to the morals of the people. Two lottery tickets, bearing four per cent. interest, from the 5th day of April, 1763, are allowed at ten pounds each, to every subscriber of eighty pounds: whereas, interest at three per cent. and that to commence only in a future year, hath been given upon former lotteries, during the highest exigencies of the public; at a time too, when there was in contemplation a loss of no less than thirty per cent. upon every blank and every prize; and when no less a sum than twelve millions was borrowed for the service of the government. On the 8th of this instant, aforesaid, and for several days preceding, the general price of stock was very much upon an equality with that which they bear at present; nor hath any considerable variation happened in the great three per cent. and four per cent. annuity funds since that time. The redeemable annuity, exclusive of the profit so certainly to be made upon the lottery tickets, sells at a premium of two and a half per cent. and the advantage made upon the whole loan, including that on the lottery tickets, is from ten to eleven

per cent. clear profit; whereby an exorbitant gain arises to individuals at the expence of the public.

"For these cogent and unrefuted reasons, we have thought it incumbent upon us to withstand, at the outset, such alarming proceedings; so repugnant to the principles of economy, and to the spirit of liberty; and by this solemn testimony to declare, that we are determined, upon all occasions, to endeavour to protect, as far as in us lies, the meanest of our fellow subjects from oppression of every kind. "TEMPLE, "BOLTON, "FORTESCUE."

This was the first time the Lords were ever known to divide upon a Money Bill. The following lords composed the minority upon this question; viz. the dukes of Grafton, Bolton, Devonshire, Newcastle and Portland; marquis of Rockingham; earls of Suffolk, Plymouth, Oxford, Ferrers, Dartmouth, Bristol, Ashburnham, Temple, Cornwallis, Hardwicke, and Fauconberg; viscounts Torrington, Folkestone, and Spencer; lords Abergavenny, Willoughby de Broke, Ward, Foley, Ducie, Monson, Fortescue, Archer, Ponsonby, Walpole, Lyttleton, Sonds, Grantham, and Grosvenor; bishops of Ely, Hereford, Worcester, Litchfield, Norwich, Lincoln, Chichester, St. Asaph, and Oxford.

marines.

........

£. s. d.

1,560,000 0 0

1,588,756 15 5

380,661 3 11

...

3,000 0 0

10,000 0 0

3,075,316 0 3

3,468,977 4 2