the directions in which it should be extended, and in that respect, I may say, that it occurs to me that this bill is admirably drafted. You who are Members of the House understand the parliamentary difficulties under some circumstances.

Mr. LONDON. That is, we are supposed to understand it.

Secretary WILSON. This bill provides that there shall be a commissioner of employment, who shall be the head of said bureau, to be appointed by the President, and who shall receive a salary of $5,000 per annum. There shall also be in said bureau a chief clerk and such experts, special agents, clerks, and other employees as may be authorized from time to time by law. By including that in your bill, the only fixed part of your organization is your commissioner. He is a fixed part of the organization, and he has a fixed salary. If this becomes a law, and the Appropriations Committee reported a measure providing $6,000 as the compensation or in any manner changing it, or any Member of Congress favored such a proposition on the floor of the House, one Member of Congress could prevent its consideration by raising the point of order that there was no authorization in law for the same. That objection could not be made to the rest of the organization.

Mr. NOLAN. I just want to make the suggestion, Mr. Secretary, that I have an amendment that I propose to offer, if the committee gives this bill consideration for the purpose of reporting it out, by inserting, after the word "by," on line 10, "appropriation or other," which will make it read "and other employees as may be authorized from time to time by appropriation or other law." It is in line with the amendment which we adopted awhile ago on one bill, and is the language of the bill for the creation of the bureau of labor safety.

Secretary WILSON. The language used is general. It is broad enough to cover everything in the way of experts, special agents, clerks, and other employees that Congress may, in its judgment, determine to give to the bureau in the expansion of its functions. So that we have language, if the appropriation committee reports out the necessary appropriation, to be applied to the personnel necessary to carry out the work, or any Member of the Congress on the floor offers an amendment to do so, no one Member of Congress can prevent its consideration. It would have to be dealt with, then, by Congress purely upon its merits, instead of being put out upon a point of order upon the ground that there is no authorization under law.

So you have provided in this bill for a means of expansion along the lines that experience may determine, whenever in the wisdom of Congress it is advisable to make an expansion.

Mr. LONDON. What in your judgment would be the initial appropriation that would be necessary as the first appropriation?

Secretary WILSON. I have not gone carefully into that. Our Bureau of Labor Statistics, at my instance, has provided a skeleton organization. After examining their draft, however, I am of the opinion that the draft which they have prepared is not at all necessary; that is, the organization that they have suggested is not at all necessary at this time. In other words, it seemed to me what was proposed in our discussions in the department created an organization which was much larger than our present needs in the present development of our work, and so I am not prepared to say at this time how large an organization might be necessary.

I want to say, however, as I was proceeding to say when I was interrupted, that we have found the sentiment throughout the country that the Division of Information in the Bureau of Immigration is dealing with the problem solely from the standpoint of the immigrant, and we have the machinery partly built up already in the Division of Information. It occurred to me that if this bill is to become a law that there should be a provision in the bill which would transfer the Division of Information to the new bureau, so that there would be no duplication of work, and I suggest in that connection that there be added a separate section after section 2, to be known as section 3, which would read as follows:

SEC. 3. The Division of Information in the Bureau of Immigration, Department of Labor, is hereby transferred to the national employment bureau, hereby created, to be combined with, organized, or rearranged in such manner as the Secretary of Labor may determine."

The desire for combination or reorganiaztion or rearrangement being brought about by virtue of the fact that if you simply transfer the Division of Information to you bureau of employment without an authorization of that kind

given to the Secretary you bring in a statutory division into a bureau of em ployment, where there is no necessity for a separate statutory division dealing with the same subject matter, and if you transfer the division to the bureau and then authorize the Secretary to combine that division with the bureau or to reorganize it or rearrange it you have overcome the obstacle and prevented duplication. In my judgment the amendment which I have suggested would facilitate the work we are now trying to do in the Bureau of Labor and would not be any more expensive to handle as a bureau than it is now to handle it as a division of the Bureau of Immigration.

Mr. NOLAN. I would just like to have a clear-cut statement. We are likely to run against-if the committee sees fit to report this bill-the statement that the machinery as it is already established is in good working order. Do you consider the creation of this bureau for this very important work would be of some distinct advantage?

Secretary WILSON. Io. do. I think that the creation of a bureau would be a distinct advantage for two reasons: First, because the people would realize by the creation of this bureau that it is dealing with the question of unemployment not only for aliens but for all of our people who are here; and, second, that the problem is an immense problem, one of the greatest problems that modern society has to deal with; and being an immense problem, it should not be complicated in its administrative machinery with a bureau dealing with another immense problem such as immigration. For these two reasons I believe that the work would be facilitated by the creation of a separate bureau, and that the expense of conducting the work would not be any greater conducted as a separate bureau-with the possible exception of a few thousand dollars for overhead charges-would not be any greater than the work of conducting it in the division of information in the Bureau of Immigration.

Mr. BROWNE. What section of the statutes do you work under now?

Secretary WILSON. Section 40 of the immigration law and section 1 of the law creating the Department of Labor.

Mr. NOLAN. You will furnish us with the suggested amendment?

Secretary WILSON. Yes; I will have copies of it made.. It is simply in crude form, as I suggested, and I will have a copy of it made and sent up to you in a little better form.

Mr. DENISON. Mr. Secretary, the Department of Labor has been advised with in the preparation of this bill before the other Congress and before this Congress?

Secretary WILSON. I did not quite catch the question.

Mr. DENISON. Has the Department of Labor been advised with as to the contents of this bill and the bill that was introduced in the former Congress, the similar bill?

Secretary WILSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. DENISON. So that this bill for the creation of this bureau meets the approval of the Department of Labor?

Secretary WILSON. With the amendment which I suggested; yes.

Mr. DENISON. Now, if the bill passes as amended according to your suggestion, would it increase the force of employees who are now required in the Department of Labor?

Secretary WILSON. It would increase it by at least one commissioner at $5,000 per annum, with probably a statistician at $2,500 or $3,000 per annum. I doubt whether, to begin with, we would need any more clerks than we now have already assigned to the Division of Information.

Mr. DENISON. I see.

Secretary WILSON. And we would not need the assistant commissioners or chief clerks, because the chief of the division and the assistant chief of the division, as at present organized, who are in the classified service, could undoubtedly be utilized, or at least people holding those positions could be utilized in the organization of this bureau if the Division of Information is transferred to this bureau.

Mr. DENISON. Now, do you understand, Mr. Secretary, that all of these employees, except the commissioner named in this bill, would be under the classified list?

Secretary WILSON. This is drafted in such manner that the only person provided for who would not be in the classified service would be the commissioner. Mr. DENISON. Now, I notice this provision here, and I would like to talk to you about it. On page 2 of the bill it says "part provided that such applications and demands for employment shall contain a declaration stating whether

a strike or lockout is in progress or pending in the establishment wherein the work is to be done."

What is the object of that provision in the bill, as you understand it?

Secretary WILSON. If I understand the purpose of a labor-distribution agency, it is not to take men from a place where an oversupply of labor is to another place where there is also an oversupply of labor. The purpose is to take them from a place where there is an oversupply of labor to a place where there is not a sufficient supply of labor. Now, if a strike exists at any point, the very fact that a strike exists at that point is an evidence that there is a sufficient supply of labor there and of the character of the labor required, because they are people who have been engaged in the industry, and the only question at issue is a question as to the terms, and under those terms and conditions it would not be the proper function of a labor-distribution agency to bring more men in where there is already a sufficient number of men. It would be a proper function of our mediation service to step in and endeavor to bring about an adjustment of the difficulty, so that those who were there and unemployed might be employed.

Mr. DENISON. Do you understand, then, that this department or this bureau would have that additional power of mediation?

Secretary WILSON. No; we already have the power of mediation in the organic law of the department.

Mr. DENISON. I see. Now this question. Do you think there would be at all any conflict in interest if this division of information which is now authorized under the immigration law was transferred to this bureau of employment, thereby putting the disposal of foreign immigrants into the hands of the same bureau which has the disposal of other idle labor?

Secretary WILSON. I do not think that would lead to any conflict of any kind whatsoever. One of the principal reasons for our immigration laws, one of the first restrictive features, has been economic. Some of the features are on a different basis, such as the restriction because of physical, mental, or moral defects. Those are sanitary. The restrictions, however, with regard to coming here under contract is purely economic. So far as the economic condition is concerned it makes no difference to the American wageworker whether the competition which results in reducing his wages and impairing his working conditions comes from an alien or an American if the alien is already here and in a position to make that competition. If the alien is here at all, then it is just as essential to the American wageworker that that alien should have the opportunity of profitable employment as it is that his American neighbor should have the opportunity for profitable employment, because if the alien has not the opportunity for profitable employment his physical necessity will force him to accept unprofitable employment in an unfair and unjust competition with his American neighbors, so that any division of our Government which deals with the problem at all should deal with it from the standpoint of furnishing employment wherever possible-profitable employment, and the distinction should be made-furnish profitable employment to all those who are citizens of the United States and to all admitted aliens; the same division of the Government should deal with both.

Mr. NOLAN. Mr. Secretary, regarding section 3 as it reads, there will not be any conflict with the Postal Department on account of the language in that section, will there?

Secretary WILSON. So far as I know there will not be, but I take the liberty of suggesting that that feature of it be submitted to the Post Office Department for consideration. We have found no difficulty in making arrangements with the Post Office Department along the lines stated by me. We have already made that arrangement, which covers practically all that is asked by this section. Whether the Post Office Department would desire to have it included as a statutory provision or not I am not prepared to state, and I take the liberty of suggesting that the section be submitted to the Post Office Department for such statement as it desires to make in connection with it. Mr. NOLAN. I think it is desirable, because we do not want to have any conflict, in case we report the bill out, with the Member on the floor regarding the department's position here.

Mr. DENISON. Could you, from your experience in these matters and connected with other similar matters, could you give an estimate as to the additional expense that would be required annually to put this bureau in operation?

Secretary WILSON. No.

Mr. NOLAN. I do not want to lead you to give any figure that you would not be satisfied with, but I mean have you any judgment on that matter?

Secretary WILSON. Only in a crude way. The work contemplated by this bill and on the scale in which we have been attempting to work it out in the division of information is the largest ever undertaken. There are no precedents to guide us. There is no previous experience upon which we can build estimates of the expense. It is contemplated in the organization that we now have in mind that in the largest cities we would have an office with the necessary clerks for the transaction of the business, in conjunction with the office of the municipality, and in those cities where there is both a municipal labor exchangė and a State bureau or department dealing with the same subject matter to have branches of the Federal Government existing there, and then carry that work out into the adjacent States, even where there is no such municipal or State branch, on the same theory and for the same purpose that a railroad might extend a spur, a feeder, even though, computed upon the basis of a mileage tonnage rate on the spur, the spur itself might not be profitable, but as a feeder to the main line it becomes profitable. On the same theory we contemplate extending, as experience demonstrates the necessity, the branches of this agency at times and points where the number of workmen placed may not, so far as computation for that particular division itself is concerned, seem profitable, and yet, as a part of the entire system, would be a profitable arrangement in the placing of our workmen. That is part of the plan that is contemplated. Mr. SMITH. In connection with the expense or the seeking of this information, would the applicant or the person wanting employment pay any fee? Secretary WILSON. No; it is not contemplated that any fee should be paid. It is contemplated

Mr. SMITH (interposing). That it should be free?

Secretary WILSON. That it should be free; the assumption being that the State itself gets its compensation from the improved economic conditions brought about by bringing the man that is without a job and the job that is without a man together, and the economic increase that grows out of it.

Mr. SUMNERS. Would it not be possible for you to cooperate with those States where they are already organized, without the necessity of establishing a Government branch?

Secretary WILSON. We have found that it is not possible in its practical operations. It might be possible to do so, and in some instances I presume it would be possible, but you can not expect that the State branch, dealing with the problem of unemployment within the State, is going to the expense of maintaining additional clerks necessary for the transaction of business which would be necessary in keeping the Federal Government advised of the opportunities. That part of the work, and that part only, should be undertaken by the Federal Government and at the expense of the Federal Government.

Mr. SUMNERS. Have you found it advisable in your experience to require those who apply for laborers to give to the Government some guaranty that they will carry out their contract?

Secretary WILSON. Not except transportation, where they have contracted to advance transportation. In every other respect we have worked upon the principle that there is no contract of labor that can be enforced upon either party; that it is a contract in honor and can not be enforced either upon the employer or employee. That is fundamental; and there are conditions upon which an employer can not be compelled to continue employment and conditions under which the workmen can not be compelled to work. Under those circumstances we have not deemed it advisable, and in fact have not deemed that it was possible, to make any arrangement by which we could force the continuance of a civil contract to labor, but we have sought to make arrangements in connection with the reimbursement of transportation where transportation has been advanced.

(The committee thereupon adjourned.)

The bill before the House is the outcome of prolonged investigation on the part of the committee into the problem of unemployment. Extensive hearings have been held by the Committee on Labor both in the Sixty-third and in the Sixty-fourth Congresses.

The views of many persons having practical experience in this field have been presented and considered.

At the hearings held on the bill during the Sixty-third Congress statements were made by the Secretary of Labor, Hon. William B. Wilson; Hon. Victor Murdock, of Kansas; Dr. John B. Andrews, representing the American Association for Labor Legislation and the American Section of the International Association on Unemployment; Mr. A. E. Vaughan, representing the Brooklyn Bureau of Charities; Mr. R. E. Cole, of Cleveland, Ohio; Mr. Joseph Mayper, representing the legislative committee of the North American Civic League for Immigrants; Dr. W. D. P. Bliss, of New York City, representing the Religious Citizenship League; Miss Frances A. Kellor representing the Conference upon Unemployment among Women; Mr. Walter L. Sears, superintendent of the State Free Employment Office, of Boston, Mass., representing the committee of 100, of Massachusetts, to advocate the representations of the Massachusetts Commission on Immigration; Mr. Manuel F. Behar, representing the National Liberal Immigration League, New York City; Hon. William J. MacDonald, of Michigan; Mr. D. B. Wheeler, Washington, D. C.; and Dr. W. M. Leiserson, in charge of the investigations into irregularity of employment and employment agencies conducted by the United States Commission on Industrial Relations.

Much valuable information will be found upon the subject in the hearings containing these statements and in the material submitted and printed in connection therewith. All those likely to be interested in the subject were invited to appear, and no one appeared in opposition to the legislation.

H. R. 5783, introduced by Mr. Nolan, contains a comprehensive plan for the establishment of such a bureau and embodies the proposition to use the post offices, postal facilities, and postal employees under the direction of a bureau of employment established in the Department of Labor. This idea has met with the approval of the committee and practically all students of the question, since it offers the opportunity of using for the solution of this problem well-established departments of the Government already organized. Moreover, it recommends itself for the reason that the expense entailed will thus be comparatively small. Also, as the post office is already the center of the social life in every community and the inhabitants habitually visit these offices, the system can at once be put into operation and those in most need of service of this kind be immediately acquainted with its opportunities through channels with which they are familiar and in the habit of using daily. The facilities for free and easy intercommunication possessed by the Post Office Department will also aid greatly in making the system efficient. The committee, after considering the provisions of the bill, and after considering the testimony of those interested as presented at the hearings, determined that it would be advisable to inaugurate the system by a bill giving broad powers to the department with sufficient authority to work out the details of administration in the way that experience should prove to be most beneficial without attempting to enact into law details of administration that later upon practical application might be found to hamper the development of the system.

The committee believes the bill gives ample power and opportunity to work out the system in the most efficient manner.