I supported his position before, and I intend to support his position in the future as he weighs an acts on these considerations.

Senator SYMINGTON. Some of us would favor, if we are going to stop the bombing, to stop all fighting, because we don't think the fighting will ever be successful if we stop air and sea attacks; and it would be a more inclusive offer to negotiate.

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. You must put the proposition in perspective, in my view. Of course, Senator, as Secretary of the Navy I would not be in the chain to make recommendations on subjects of this kind. Senator SYMINGTON. Why wouldn't you?

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. Because the Secretary of the Navy is not responsible for advising on such matters.

Senator SYMINGTON. But your opinion would be considered, would it not.

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. It is not in the charter of the Secretary of the Navy.

Senator SYMINGTON. What you are saying is that, as Secretary of the Navy you are going to follow whatever policies and philosophies are laid down by Secretary McNamara and the President, is that correct?

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. That is correct.

Senator SYMINGTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman RUSSELL. I want to make an observation. I think that airpower is essential to the security of this country. I may not think it is as effective as some of the Air Force and the Navy air personnel do, because if they didn't think it was all important they wouldn't be doing their job.

But I think the selection of targets has as much to do with the effectiveness of this air effort over North Vietnam as anything else.

And from what I have been able to read lately, we haven't been able to attack any new targets for a long time. We are bombing a lot of old roads and trails, and sending out $3 or $4 million planes, and pilots that have cost a quarter of a million dollars to train, and killing a couple of water buffalo. They are not permitted to put the bombs where they will really bring the pressure on the enemy that will bring a conclusion of this war. It is very discouraging to one who knows the nature of potential targets to hear the news handed out to the American people that we flew so many hundred sorties over North Vietnam, when the targets were of no consequence.

Senator SYMINGTON. If the chairman will yield, I think that information will get back to the Department of Defense by my friend, Mr. Stempler, who is here. Mr. Stempler has just been listening to the outstanding civilian expert on the military in this town.

Chairman RuSSELL. I feel very humble to hear that statement from the first Secretary of Air in my country. And I assure you that these views have been expressed not only here, but other places where the policies have been made.

Senator MILLER. Will the Chairman yield at this time?
Chairman RUSSELL. The Chair vields.

Senator MILLER. I would just like to add a footnote to what Senator Symington has said. I for one would like to see something come out in the press-it could be a quotation from spokesmen of the Department of Defense, and no names would be necessary, but it would have the stamp of Departinent of Defense or Department of Navy approval, which would in effect deny something like this that Senator Symington has read. And then the American people would have something in perspective. And then they would be able to more properly evaluate this kind of business.

But as it is now I don't really see anything of that nature.

I think it might be helpful from the standpoint of public opinion if the Department of Defense or one of the Departments would undertake to make a press release and they don't have to name any names, it could be unnamed spokesmen, it could be you, for that matter, or the Under Secretary of Defense, just so it counterbalances that kind of statement that Senator Symington has pointed out.

Senator SYMINGTON. Would the Senator yield for one more observation?

Senator MILLER. Yes, indeed.

Senator SYMINGTON. It is our understanding that in the not-toodistant future you are going to ask for tens of thousands additional ground troops in Vietnam. No one has more respect for the U.S. Army than I, or the U.S. Marine Corps. Next year I will have been in the Army 50 years. One of my sons was in the Army, the other in the Marines. But I am as convinced that you could do a far better job with far less men in Vietnam if you let the Navy and the Air Force hit the meaningful North Vietnam military targets and hit them again and again in accordance with normal air action, as I am that the sun is coming up tomorrow. When you take these tens of thousands of additional ground troops, and let them slug it out, foot by foot, hill by hill, musket by musket, in terrain with which they are totally unfamiliar, and with which the enemy is completely familiar, instead of using the technological and qualitative advantages of U.S. airpower and seapower, you are wasting unnecessarily American lives and American treasure. We have a right to our opinion, as you have to yours. That is why we are so distressed about this latest group of stories coming out which once more attempt to denigrate airpower and seapower.

Mr. Chairman, may I leave my proxy with you? I must go to the Senate floor. Chairman RUSSELL. I think I should advise the committee that there is going to be a vote in just a few minutes, and we can come back, unless we can conclude.

Any questions, Senator McIntyre?

Senator MCINTYRE. No questions, just congratulations.

Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Brewster?

Senator BREWSTER. No questions.

Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Byrd?

Senator BYRD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. McNaughton, I note that you were a newspaper editor for a

while.

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. Yes.

Senator BYRD. I have been one, too.

During the past 3 years, as I understand it, you have been the Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs. Mr. MCNAUGHTON. That is correct.

Chairman RUSSELL. That is the vote. The committee will stand in recess until after the vote on the Senate floor.

Senator Byrd, if I happen to be late, I will ask you to preside.

Senator BYRD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman RUSSELL. The committee will now stand in recess. (Recess 11:25 to 11:45 a.m.)

Senator BYRD (presiding). Gentlemen, the chairman suggested that we start. And if the Secretary will permit, I will continue where I left off.

To restate it so that you will have a full understanding of it, in the past 3 years you have been the Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs?

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. That is correct, Senator. Senator BYRD. Now, in that capacity would you consider yourself the principal adviser to Secretary of Defense McNamara on international security affairs, including the Vietnam war?

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. I would think that I am one of the principal advisers on that subject. Yes, sir. The others are of course Mr. Vance and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and the other chiefs. They would be advisers of more importance than I on the same subject. Senator BYRD. You are very modest, I can say. Mr. MCNAUGHTON. No, that is true, Senator.

Senator BYRD. In your capacity as Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs do you evaluate the recommendations of the Joint Chiefs of Staff?

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. I advise the Secretary of Defense on the political implications of the recommendations. It is not my job to evaluate them in the military sense.

I am not trying to evade the question, Senator. It is just that there is a marriage between the political and the military side, and my responsibility relates to the political half of that marriage. I advise the Secretary in this respect.

Senator BYRD. Many people believe, rightly or wrongly, that naval aviation has been hampered in its operations over North Vietnam. Do you believe that naval aviation is being used effectively to bring the maximum pressure on the enemy?

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. I believe that naval aviation is doing its tasks effectively. That is the first half of that question.

With respect to the second half, maximum pressure, I am afraid, I must yield to others as to what constitutes maximum pressure in the whole equation to which the President must address himself. There is no question but that Secretary Nitze's statement is correct, that more physical damage could be done with fewer restraints. The question of whether more psychological pressure more helpful psychological pressure from the President's point of view of trying to bring the war to a successful conclusion-would be achieved thereby is a decision he has reached in the negative. In other words, the President, I believe, thinks he has struck the optimum balance in this regard.

Senator BYRD. Is that your view also?

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. Yes; I support the President's decision on this point.

Senator BYRD. Then I assume that if you answered the question precisely it would be in the negative, the question being, Do you believe that naval aviation is being used effectively to bring the maximum pressure on the enemy? I assume you would answer that in the negative.

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. No. I can answer the question only in pieces, as I have. We could achieve more physical damage, Senator. But the question of the word "effective" and the question of the word "pressure" are ones that the President deals with every time he makes a - decision. And it is my understanding that he has struck a balance in keeping with what he is trying to do to bring the war to an end. I can only answer your question in that way.

Senator BYRD. Another question: Are you in favor of continuing the present policy of affording a sanctuary to Haiphong and Hanoi while our Army and Marines are incurring mounting losses in ground combat?

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. I am not in favor of sanctuary at all, Senator, in respect to Hanoi and Haiphong. This takes us back again to the equation that the President addresses. I don't really quite understand the question, because the connection between "sanctuary" and "losses" is not clear to me.

Senator BYRD. Let me phrase it differently.

Is Haiphong a sanctuary?

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. I am not aware that it is. I understand that the President has authorized strikes in Haiphong area. And he may very well authorize them again.

Senator BYRD. Haiphong, then, is that a sanctuary?

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. It has not been a sanctuary. At times-
Senator BYRD. It is not off bounds for bombing?

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. At the moment, at this moment in time, Senator, I am not aware of what the rule is with respect to Haiphong. And I would be very indiscreet if I did know and said what it was in a public session.

But the President has authorized bombing there, and very well may authorize it again. That is all I can say.

Senator BYRD. You mentioned Haiphong. Are you speaking now of Haiphong or Hanoi?

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. I am speaking of Haiphong. Were you speaking of Hanoi?

Senator BYRD. Hanoi.

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. Hanoi, I think, is in the same category. There have been targets struck there very recently. I am uninformed as to what the rule is as of this moment, as to what the President has authorized at this moment.

Senator MILLER. Would the Senator yield at this point?
Senator BYRD. I yield at this point.

Senator MILLER. I was wondering if the Senator from Virginia was drawing a distinction between Haiphong itself and Haiphong Harbor, the port.

Senator BYRD. I was dealing at that particular point only with Hanoi. I would like to get to Haiphong in a moment.

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. I thought you were talking about Haiphong. But the same answer would apply to Hanoi, Senator.

Senator BYRD. If you feel that any of these questions should not be considered in open session, I know of no reason, if Senator Miller doesn't and we will get Mr. Darden's advice, too-that we should not go into executive session if some of these questions appear to be in an area in which you could not answer publicly.

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. Or I could submit answers to you, Senator, in classified form.

Senator BYRD. Let me ask you this question.

During the past 2 years do you feel that the war has greatly widened? Mr. MCNAUGHTON. Widened during the past 2 years? No.

Senator BYRD. Now, could I recite what seems to me areas where it has been greatly widened. Two years ago, that is, April of 1965, we had 29,000 ground troops in Vietnam. Today, we have got in round figures 462,000 ground troops in Vietnam. Now, it seems to me that so far as the American people are concerned that the war has been greatly widened.

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. I agree that the war has "widened" if you use the word "widened" in that sense.

The war has been greatly intensified.

Senator BYRD. It has not been widened insofar as going beyond the physical boundaries of Vietnam?

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. That is correct.

Senator BYRD. It has not been widened insofar as bringing in additional allies to help us?

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. Well, we have gotten some additional allies. The Koreans and the Australians and New Zealanders and the Thai and the Filipinos have all contributed forces in that period, a total of over 50,000, between 50,000 and 60,000 forces.

Senator BYRD. While it hasn't been widened beyond the borders of Vietnam, it may be widened so far as the contributions of the American people are concerned?

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. It has intensified in that sense; that is correct. Senator BYRD. Intensified both in regard to manpower and in regard to economic resources?

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. That is correct. And furthermore-a correction of my original answer, Mr. Senator-the actions against North Vietnam have been intensified in that period.

Senator BYRD. During that same period of 2 years, while the American ground forces were being built from 29,000 to 462,000 today, the harbor at Haiphong has been an open harbor insofar as cargo going to the Vietnamese enemy is concerned; is that correct?

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. That is correct, with minor qualification. There have been some strikes on some facilities. The answer in substance is "Yes."

Senator BYRD. In other words, while the war has been greatly widened insofar as the American people are concerned in the way of combat troops, and in the way of economic resources, we have done nothing to shut off the supplies going through the harbor at Haiphong? Mr. MCNAUGHTON. For practical purposes, that is correct. Senator BYRD. Do you agree with that policy?

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. I support the President's decision. So far his position has been not to change that policy, and I respect his judgment in balancing the forces and coming out that way.

Senator BYRD. Now, a great aircraft carrier was recently launched, in Virginia, incidentally, driven by a conventional propulsion system instead of nuclear power. The public understands the nuclear power was vetoed by the Secretary of Defense. Now, this vessel has been described as an obsolete vessel from its beginning.

Do you agree with that assertion?

Mr. MCNAUGHTON. I cannot agree or disagree with that assertion. I think that subject is one of the most interesting ones that I will be