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Secretary FORRESTAL. Yes. That language reads as follows:

Provided, That the Department of the Army, the Department of the Navy, and the. Department of the Air Force, under the direction of the Secretary of National Defense, shall be administered as individual units by their respective Secretaries

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Senator BYRD. That is to be administered under the direction of the Secretary of National Defense, and therefore they have no authority except such authority as the Secretary of National Defense delegates to them. Am I right about that?

Secretary FORRESTAL. Of course, we talked a great deal about the connotation of the word "administered."

Senator BYRD. You say specifically, though:

Under the direction of the Secretary of National Defense, shall be administered

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I think there is no question whatever that they have no authority except such authority as the Secretary of National Defense gives At least, that (was

them.

Secretary FORRESTAL. I do not agree, Senator. not the intent of this bill.

Senator BYRD. I would like to have you point out to me where the authority you mention is in the bill.

Secretary FORRESTAL. The authority for the administration of the Navy Department, as I see it. is in the Secretary of the Navy.

Senator BYRD. It is administered, though, under the direction of the Secretary of National Defense.

Secretary FORRESTAL. Yes, it is administered under the general provisions that the Secretary of National Defense lays down. I think that that should be so.

Let me give you a particular case, that of the purchase of machine tools, which even for the Navy alone was on a diffused and dispersed basis. It was, I can assure you, practically a revolution to concentrate the purchase of these tools under a single chief. Each Bureau head wanted to have that as his prerogative. He had a particular method of buying tools. In wartime, however, you cannot indulge that. Machine tool capacity is limited, and there is a priority of demand on different things.

Now, I assume this to mean that the Secretary of the Navy would conform to the policy on purchase of machine tools laid down by the Secretary of National Defense. But the Secretary of National Defense would not be empowered, under my reading of this language, to say, "You shall appoint Admiral X as Chief of the Bureau of Ordnance."

Senator BYRD. Where is it that the independent authority of these three Secretaries is established? If you are correct it has to be in the bill somewhere. We are passing a law. We are not adopting your personal views or mine. Where is the independent authority of the three secretaries provided for?

Secretary FORRESTAL. There is the broad covering language about administration which I have just read.

Senator BYRD. But when you put in the language here, "under the direction of the Secretary of National Defense," does it not follow that no power exists without the approval of the Secretary of National

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Defense? There is a blanket authority or some such kind of authority giving independence to the secretaries of the three armed branches. Secretary FORRESTAL. No more so than this: I am appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate, and

Senator BYRD. I am not speaking of the President. But I understood that you changed your position on this bill because of the fact that independence was given to the Navy. Now, where is that independence?

Secretary FORRESTAL. In two respects: first, in the right of access to the President by law, upon questions on which there is disagreement; and second, by the provision, upon which we spent a good deal of time, that the administration of each of these three great organizations shall be conducted "as individual units" by their respective Secretaries. Senator BYRD. But it does not say that.

Secretary FORRESTAL. To me it does, Senator.

Senator BYRD. Well, can you read the language? Where is it?

Secretary FORRESTAL. If I were named as Secretary of the Navy, my method of arriving at the result you are after would be to ask the man I work for: "I assume that you want me to run the Navy, under your broad general direction, and accepting the policies laid down by you. If you want me on that basis, I shall be happy to serve. If you want me to come on the basis that you are going to tell me who shall work for me, who shall be Bureau chiefs, that would be a different thing."

Senator BYRD. We must assume that, this Government is supposed to be by laws, and not by men. Where is the independence you mention set forth in the law?

Secretary FORRESTAL. The only point of disagreement between us, Senator, is that I do not believe you can, by law, direct the way organizations run.

Senator BYRD. You can direct who has the power. If you do not do that, there is no use in passing legislation of this kind.

Secretary FORRESTAL. Even that is tenuous.

Senator BYRD. Well, is this the same language that was in the other bill?

Secretary FORRESTAL. No, it is not.

Senator BYRD. The only thing that I know of which is different, between the two bills, is the right to go to the President; which does not mean much, because if any Under Secretary continues to bypass the Secretary of National Defense and go to the President, his superior will see that he does not remain there long.

Secretary FORRESTAL. Well, in the first place, I think you would have such a situation, under your assumption, that it would be impossible to run an organization. But, to the contrary, the fact is that, without mentioning names, which I think would be inappropriate, there are many cases with which I think you and I are both familiar where people have remained in the same Department in a state of, let's say, lack of amity.

Senator BYRD. That is a very bad thing for any Department and should not be encouraged.

Secretary FORRESTAL. Yes, certainly.

Senator BYRD. The idea of these three being members of the Cabinet is perfectly ridiculous, because they are subordinate officers. They do not have the same authority that the Secretary of National Defense has.

Secretary FORRESTAL. That is quite right.

Senator BYRD. If you are unable to point out this provision, would you mind having some one in your Department make up a memorandum for me showing where this authority is written in the law? Secretary FORRESTAL. I would be very glad to.

Senator BYRD. Now, there is one other question: You say, Mr. Secretary, that there is no economy in the bill.

Secretary FORRESTAL. I said I could not identify it now.

Senator BYRD. If you cannot identify it, it certainly is not there. If you do not claim it, it certainly is not there. I say this from experience in dealing with departments for a long time. If they do not claim economy, the economy is not there.

Secretary FORRESTAL. I claimed it for wartime, Senator. Senator BYRD. Well, that is somewhat indefinite. Because the President has the right, in wartime, to completely reorganize the Army and the Navy.

Secretary FORRESTAL. But you have to have your machinery laid down. I cite you again the case of machine tools.

Senator BYRD. The only reason, as I understand it, that you think there is economy in wartime and not in peacetime is because you make larger purchases and make them quicker. And there ought to be, by the same token, some economies in peacetime.

Secretary FORRESTAL. Let me cite the matter of inventory. One of the difficulties in war, one of the difficulties in purchasing which we go through, is lack of knowledge as to how much we need to purchase. Now, in order to get at that, whether it is the merchandising business of Sears, Roebuck or Montgomery Ward, or the War and Navy Department, there has to be some usage factor which men can look to; they can not simply pluck it out of the sky.

Now, time will not permit the method by which you arrive at that result to be worked out in time of war, because the hot breath of disaster will already be at the back of your neck.

Senator BYRD. But there is no economy that you can see in peacetime.

Secretary FORRESTAL. I did not say that, Senator. I said I would be speculating. I am able to name you some economies, but they would simply be my opinion.

Senator BYRD. Is this not true-I saw it published in some military source-that for the period immediately after the merger, there will be a substantial increase in costs?

Secretary FORRESTAL. Well, obviously there could be. I do not say there would be, but there could be some increase in the staff of the Secretary's office.

Senator BYRD. Do you anticipate that there will be any increase by reason of this?

Secretary FORRESTAL. No, sir.

Senator BYRD. But you can not specify at this time?

Secretary FORRESTAL. Well, as I say, I do not like to guess.

Senator BYRD. I think that is an important question to clear up, because the people of the country feel that one of the arguments in favor of this merger is economy. Economy may be subordinated to other matters. But after all, we are spending now 33 cents out of the dollar on our military budget. And our credit situation is one that is ex

tremely serious. We are a nation that is in debt to the extent of $260,000,000,000. And this is certainly a matter which we ought to consider, is it not?

Secretary FORRESTAL. I agree with you completely.

Senator BYRD. And my constituents have communicated to me their belief that this bill was to be passed on the theory that vast economies are going to be made. Many think that you are going to have joint procurement of supplies, the same hospitals, the same airfields, and so forth, and millions and millions of dollars will be saved.

Secretary FORRESTAL. I do not want to be on record, Senator, as saying that I do not think there will be some economies. I simply said that I did not want to speculate upon their extent. There will be some. In wartime, I think they will be very substantial.

Senator BYRD. You said you do not look for any great economies in peacetime. I do not know what "great economies" means, but my observation has been that when a department of the Government does not make a claim for economy, then economy is never achieved.

Secretary FORRESTAL. Well, Senator, I would rather show you, rather than make the claim.

Senator BYRD. I think it would be well to go into this matter with the War and Navy Departments, to see if we can get what economies we can, independently of this merger.

Secretary FORRESTAL. I wrote you a letter on that, Senator, you will recollect.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Hill?

Senator HILL. I do not desire to detain the committee, but I have one or two questions to ask.

Mr. Secretary, we were speaking about the matter of these Secretaries in the Cabinet. We spoke of the National Security Council, which is composed of these Secretaries. In addition thereto, the bill also provides for a War Council, does it not?

Secretary FORRESTAL. Yes, sir.

Senator HILL. That War Council is composed of these different Secretaries, of National Defense, Army, Navy, and Air Force, together with the Chiefs of Staff of the Navy, Army, and Air Corps. Is that not true?

Secretary FORRESTAL. Yes, sir.

Senator HILL. And you have that War Council in addition to your National Security Council. Now, the question has been raised, and very properly so, about the Marine Corps and naval aviation. As I read section 106 (a), on page 6 of the bill, both the Marine Corps and the naval aviation are, by act of Congress, by law, absolutely made a part, an integral part, of the Department of the Navy; and could not be taken out without an act of the Congress, a legislative act abolishing them, or by Congress withholding their appropriations so they could not function. Is that not true?

Secretary FORRESTAL. To answer your question a little bit indirectly, if they would be abolished, they could be abolished by a President just as well as by a Secretary of National Defense. And I think you run the same human risks in either case.

Senator HILL. As to the writing of this law, do you not agree that your language is just about as strong as you can make it? You make them integral parts of your Navy Department; is that not true?

Secretary FORRESTAL. That is correct.
Senator HILL. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Secretary, before we close, I want to say that we are glad to have the Secretary of War here also. During the course of the hearings, there will be many ideas advanced. I have one idea, which is not something that just occurred to me at this point, but something which has been with me throughout all the war years, possibly because of the need back home in the civilian economy of the country. I refer to the shortage of doctors in every community in the Nation, all during the war.

I think that Congress has got to seriously think about what is going to happen in case we get into that position again. Also, even though we remain at peace, we must economize in the use of our professional men, in the medical profession especially.

We were lucky in the last war, in the war just completed. We did not have a big flu epidemic as we did in World War I. And maybe we will not be so lucky next time.

There has been a tremendous shortage of doctors in both branches of the service all during the war. The Federal Government even paid for their training, and still we were short. We are presently short on good medical men, all over the country.

It has been suggested many times that there are too many doctors, say, in a division of the Army, too many doctors assigned to one navy yard or battleship. Maybe they did not have enough to do. Another point is that in the next war we may have to fight a different kind of war. We have heard about one bomb obliterating a whole community. We might be under the necessity of having to mobilize our doctors, civilian doctors, to take care of a catastrophe in some community. I think those are things we have to think about now.

If a large community of two to four million people were suddenly pounced upon, would it be a matter for the Army and Navy, or would it be a matter for the medical men?

Secretary FORRESTAL. I think the whole question of civilian defense, and of planning for it against the possibility of any future war, is a subject of paramount importance.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I am very greatly concerned about it, and I know the Army and Navy are, right at the moment. Because you are having great difficulty in keeping competent medical men in the service. There are such ideas as increased compensation for medical men. And they are not far away, either. They are forthcoming, before this Congress.

Secretary FORRESTAL. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to have all three of the services, the Air Corps, the Army, and the Navy, study the question and be prepared to submit to this committee, during this hearing, the question of whether or not we should have a combined medical service for all three organizations, so that doctors could be assigned from that service to each of the three, as the need arises, and then be brought back when the need lessens, and be assigned elsewhere.

Secretary FORRESTAL. Of course, we would probably disagree with you, Senator, on that concept, because we have a strong feeling that particularly aboard ship the doctor's functions are those of command. And again, you go to the inherent difference between the naval organ

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