The CHAIRMAN. And is it not also a fact that as military head of his service he is in position to carry out the will of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in his particular service? Admiral CARNEY. Yes, sir. The point that I made was that in practical planning this sequence of events is more or less inevitable: The determination of what you would like to do, the determination of what you have with which to accomplish it, the determination of your deficiencies, and some resolution of the problem with regard to your deficiencies, and your desire to get on with the operation. And those are practical planning-level efforts, which I think are implied in the text of the bill, but I think should be included in the diagram. The CHAIRMAN. At the moment, General Eisenhower is Chief of Staff of the Army, and he reports and works under the Secretary of War, does he not? Admiral CARNEY. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Well, does this bill change that set-up at all? Does it change it in any way? The Joint Chiefs of the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force will continue to work with the three Secretaries as proposed in this bill? Admiral CARNEY. That is right, sir. Senator ROBERTSON. I question you there, Admiral. The Joint Chiefs of Staff, according to the set-up of this act, as shown by the chart, work under the Secretary of National Defense and give instructions to the unified field commands alone. Admiral CARNEY. Yes, sir; that is right. Senator ROBERTSON. The Joint Chiefs give direct instructions to the unified field commands. Again I emphasize what you have said, and the importance strikes me more and more as I look at this: That there is no connection between the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Secretaries of the three services, and that, to my mind, is enough to kill any bill, particularly after what happened in the war. The Joint Chiefs of Staff in war proved to be the center and the deciding factor in practically every action that was taken during the war, all over the world. Is that not so? Admiral CARNEY. Yes, Senator, but I think that the membership of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and their identity, their actual identity as the Chiefs of Staff of their respective services, provide at that level a connection between the Joint Chiefs and the Military Establishment, the three cells of the Military Establishment. But the point that I believe could be advantageously shown, and which I believe is implicit in the language of this bill, is that at the levels where there is interlocking membership of planning agencies within the departments and planning committees on the Joint Chiefs of Staff, there should be a channel shown to indicate this endless chain of investigation which precedes the initiation of any military operation. Senator ROBERTSON. There should be; yes, I agree with you. But there is not. Admiral CARNEY. I think that is a defect in drafting this chart probably, sir. Senator ROBERTSON. S. 758 does not show it, Admiral, and as I see this bill, you are cutting the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force completely off from the Joint Chiefs of Staff. They have got to go through the Secretary of National Defense for every connection they have got with the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force. Just look at the chart: "Organization proposed by S. 2044 and S. 888." Here the Joint Chiefs of Staff are high and dry over in one corner, with no connection at all to anyone but maybe the Secretary of Common Defense. The CHAIRMAN. Right at this point, Senator Robertson, I believe it would be well for the committee to have information directly from the men who are responsible for the drafting of S. 758. I am sorry Admiral Sherman is not here, so I am going to ask General Norstad to make a statement at this point in the record. General NORSTAD. It might be appropriate to give the background and the present status of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the relationship that the Joint Chiefs of Staff have with the individual Departments at this time, to show the change that will be caused by this bill. The Joint Chiefs of Staff, as Admiral Sherman pointed out the other day in his statement, have an individual and a collective responsibility. They are commanders of their respective services. As such they carry out within their respective services, the decisions of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Senator ROBERTSON. The military decisions? General NORSTAD. The military decisions of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; yes, sir. And you mentioned, Senator, the Logistics Committee, the Petroleum Board, which come under the Joint Chiefs of Staff. They also coordinate that activity. And this bill provides an agency, or an individual, short of the President, through whom can be passed on the military decisions directly to the three Departments. That does not relieve the Joint Chiefs of Staff of their present responsibility, their individual responsibility, within their services. It facilitates the action of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, because it no longer has to go directly to the President. It can, as long as it is within the functions of the National Defense Establishment, be carried out by the Secretary, who is responsible for the Joint Chiefs of Staff and also for the three Departments. Senator ROBERTSON. Precisely. The CHAIRMAN. Let us have an explanation of the changes in the flow of orders that would occur under S. 758, as against the present system, General. General NORSTAD. Well, the present system, as is probably well known, is that the Joint Chiefs of Staff act by unanimous agreement. There is no decision of the Joint Chiefs of Staff unless all members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff agree. If they reach a decision-that is, a unanimous agreement-then they go back to their own services, to their establishments for which they are responsible, and they carry out that decision in the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Now, some of these decisions, particularly those dealing with overseas commands, are of such a nature that they do go to the President. In some instances, there may be a disagreement over a long period of time on some important matter; there may be disagreement between the Chiefs, which they see no hope of resolving. The instances of that have been infrequent, but they have occurred, however. So the matter goes to the President, the President makes the decision and then the Chiefs go back and carry it out within their respective departments. The change here provided by this bill is that we have the Secretary of National Defense, who is responsible for the over-all running of the Department of National Defense. The Joint Chiefs of Staff are, in fact, a staff agency to him, a military staff agency to him. He can pass on the directives of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to the individual Department. On the other hand, the individual Chiefs retail their individual responsibility for carrying out their decisions within their own Departments. So this, in fact, facilitates action. Senator ROBERTSON. But interrupting you, General, let us say that the Secretary-we will call him the super-Secretary, to differentiate him from the Secretaries of the Army, Air, and Navy-does not agree with the decisions of the General Štaff, the Chiefs of the General Staff. General NORSTAD. Let me refer you now to page 12, the last line. Senator ROBERTSON. Well, let us look at the chart. That is the simplest way. General NORSTAD. The Joint Chiefs of Staff operate subject to the authority and direction of the President and of the Secretary of National Defense. When any decision of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is referred to the Secretary, if the Secretary has other views, then, because of the dual functions of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, it is my opinion that if it is on a matter of great importance, it would then be referred to the Commander in Chief, the President. The CHAIRMAN. Well, General, right there: The Commander in Chief will be advised of all happenings in the Joint Chiefs of Staff through his representatives on that staff. General NORSTAD. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. And that representative is the Chief of Staff to the Commander in Chief who is presently Admiral Leahy; is that not right? General NORSTAD. Yes, sir. Senator ROBERTSON. That is the present set-up. The CHAIRMAN. Any may I ask you, General, one or two questions along that line. That is the present set-up? General NORSTAD. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Now, does S. 758 change that in any way? The President will be advised through his own Chief of Staff? General NORSTAD. That is right, sir. The CHAIRMAN. And S. 758 does not change that, does it? General NORSTAD. That is correct. The CHAIRMAN. It continues the present set-up? General NORSTAD. That is correct, sir. The CHAIRMAN. In addition, the Joint Chiefs of Staff report additionally to the Secretary of National Defense, under 758. General NORSTAD. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Then, General, is it not so that each Chief of Staff, of the Army, Navy, and Air Force, as proposed in 758, will go back into their own commands in the three services and carry out the decision of the Joint Chiefs? General NORSTAD. That is right, sir. Senator ROBERTSON. Subject to the approval of the Secretary of National Defense. The CHAIRMAN. But may I finish my thought here: Following through on that, after they go back to their three services, their individual services, they work under the Secretaries of their own particular branches. General NORSTAD. That is correct, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Is that not a fact? General NORSTAD. That is correct, sir. The CHAIRMAN. And does that explanation not complete the chain and show that the Joint Chiefs of each separate service do work under their particular civilian Secretary? General NORSTAD. As Chiefs of their respective services, they do, sir, definitely; under their respective Secretaries. The one thing that is offered by the bill which does not exist today is this agency short of the President, a channel short of the President for carrying out the decisions of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. As I stated before, in some instances matters have had to be referred to the President for decision. This Secretary is a channel short of the President for carrying this out. The CHAIRMAN. In other words, is the Secretary of National Defense a Cabinet member who is putting in his full time, under the provisions of S. 758? General NORSTAD. Yes; and that should facilitate the operation of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Senator ROBERTSON. Well, General, all decisions of the Joint Chiefs of Staff other than those sent to the unified field commands, which can be sent direct, are sent to the Secretary of National Defense, or through the Joint Chiefs of Staff. to the Commander in Chief, to the President himself? General NORSTAD. Not necessarily, sir. The Chiefs of Staff still have their individual responsibility. Senator ROBERTSON. It does not show that here, other than as it concerns the unified field commands. General NORSTAD. But they still are the military chiefs of their respective services. Senator ROBERTSON. Surely they are. But the Chief of Naval Operations, for instance, cannot advise the Secretary of the Navy of a decision that they arrive at in a meeting of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, because the Secretary of National Defense may change that. General NORSTAD. The Joint Chiefs of Staff, like the three Departments, as was discussed here several days ago, and which is clear in the language of the bill as far as the Joint Chiefs are concerned, operate subject to the authority and direction of the President and the Secretary. Senator ROBERTSON. Precisely. General NORSTAD. It is clear that the Joint Chiefs, as individual chiefs of their services, can, within the powers given to them by their individual Secretaries, carry out within their services the decisions of the Joint Chiefs of Staff without any mandatory reference to anyone. Senator ROBERTSON. Provided the Secretary of National Defense approves those decisions. General NORSTAD. I would not believe that the approval was necessary, sir, as long as they were operating within the powers given to them by the President or by the Secretaries of their respective services. Senator ROBERTSON. Then why are they not permitted to report direct to the Secretary of the Army, the Secretary of the Navy, and the Secretary of the Air Force, and by-pass the Secretary of National Defense as the Secretaries of Army and Air Force would be able to do about once in their lifetime only? General NORSTAD. I believe, sir, that goes back again to language as to the Secretary of National Defense. He has a responsibility. He provides the unifying factor in this bill. Senator ROBERTSON. Now, let us imagine the Secretary of National Defense. There are about two or three left in this administration that might fill the bill. There is Mr. Lilienthal, Mr. Chester Bowles, and Mr. Leon Henderson. Now, do you mean to tell me that the Joint Chiefs of Staff have got to send their recommendations to Mr. Lilienthal or Mr. Chester Bowles or Mr. Leon Henderson and have him decide as to whether he agrees with it or not, and then pass it on to the Secretaries? General NORSTAD. I don't believe that would be necessary, sir, if the Joint Chiefs of Staff can reach a decision. Because within the command responsibilities of these individuals—that is, within the power given to them by their individual secretaries-they can carry out these matters, because it has the same effect as an individual decision by the individual. That is the only way the Joint Chiefs of Staff operate today. Senator ROBERTSON. Now, General, I am not arguing with you on anything like that. I am just pointing out what your plan, your chart of this bill, shows. Senator SALTOSTALL. Are you through, Senator Robertson? Senator SALTONSTALL. Mr. Chairman, this might be helpful. I am not sure that it is, but I will throw it out for what it is worth. I have here the summary of a unified logistic support plan for the National Defense Establishment. I understand this was prepared by the Navy Department, approved by Secretary Kenney. On page 11, following up what Senator Robertson has been bringing out, is the heading "Joint Chiefs of Staff." Now, I will read the next 10 lines: The Joint Chiefs of Staff as the highest military agent in the Government are, under the President in his capacity as Commander in Chief, the agency responsible for formulating military policy. They also are directly concerned with the commitments, risks, and objectives which flow from the coordination of our foreign and military policies in the National Security Council. It is on the basis of those commitments, risks, and objectives, that they prepare the strategic requirements which form a vital link in the chain of our mobilization planning. Now, the National Security Council is composed of the Secretaries of the three branches and of the National Security Resources Board, and others designated by the President. Is that correct? General NORSTAD. Yes, sir. Senator SALTONSTALL. Now, it is on the basis of these commitments, risks, and objectives, that they prepare the strategic requirements |