Auswer. I am acquainted with the situation of Fort Hall. I think it desirable that there should be a post in that neighborhood for the present.

Question. What would you say as to any posts in Utah ?

Answer. I cannot testify as to their necessity.

Question. Can you say anything as to the posts in Washington an Oregon ?

Auswer. There is a post in the neighborhood of the Nez Percés reservation, in Eastern Washington, which I would suppose to be important to the care of the Indians or the care of the whites. There is a post on the Columbia River, which is of no value, as a protection, either to whites or Indians; but it is possible that it may be deemed necessary as a depot; I do not know enough of military affairs to speak of them.

Question. have you any knowledge of the forts or posts in California, so far as Indians are concerned?

Answer. Not much.

Question. Nor Nevada ?

Answer. I have not been in Nevada. Generally, it is a serious detriment to the Indian service, and to the Indians, to have the military in the immediate locality of Indians. Whenever it can be avoided it ought to be avoided.

Question. For what reason?

Answer. The common soldiers, in time of peace, come usually from the lowest class of population in the cities; every gentleman in the committee must be aware of the quality of the rank and file of the Army thus recruited. Their intercourse, either with whites or Indians, is demoralizing. In some places there still exists a system of mutual demoralization between the Indians and the troops in their immediate neighborhood.

Without concluding the testimony of this witness, the committee adjourned till 10 o'clock to-morrow.

JANUARY 16, 1874.

The examination of the witness was resumed, as follows:

By the CHAIRMAN: Question. State whether the Indians, or any tribes, can be concentrated so as to require the presence of fewer troops.

Answer. I think that they can be. I would not like to indicate or designate precisely where it would be practicable immediately, but the process of concentrating them is going on all the time. It is one which requires a great deal of care and management to be accomplished successfully.

Question. State whether you think any military posts that are in the neighborhood of Indian tribes can be dispensed with.

Answer. I have no doubt that there are some that can be dispensed with.

Question. What posts are those?

Answer. There are two posts in California, at Indian reservations, from which we had reports two years ago, showing that the presence of military there was a serious detriment, both to the Indians and the whites. One of them is at Round Valley reservation, and is called Fort

Gaston. The other is in Hoopa Valley. This report came from a member of our board.

Question. State the reason for that opinion.

Answer. The Indians there were not such as would be likely, under any circumstances, to interfere with the whites, and the country was sufficiently settled and civilized to make it unlikely that the troops would be needed for the protection of the Indians.

Question. Was there, at those points, any danger of the inroads of whites upon Indians, trespassing upon their reservation or property? Answer. At one of those points the whites had already taken possession of considerable of the land of the Indians. The presence of troops could not remedy that.

Question. Were the civil authorities sufficient for the purpose?
Answer. The civil authorities could do it, if they would.

I wish to qualify what I said yesterday in regard to Fort Hall, Idaho. I believe I said that it would be well to have that post remain. I said so in view of the fact that it is contemplated to concentrate the Indians of that region of country at certain points, and I thought it possible that the removal of the troops on the eve of making the effort might be inexpedient. I think the continuance of that post would not be advisable after the changes are made.

Question. Have you made any estimate as to the saving that would accrue from the concentration of the scattered Indians, both in regard to the money that is paid out by the Indian Bureau and that which is expended by the War Department in guarding for and against them as is now done?

Answer. No; I have not. I do not know whether it would be practicable to do so. It would not seem to me to be a thing of any practical value, for the reason that you cannot possibly make such a concentration in a given time without enormous expense, long wars, and great loss of life. That it should be done in time I have no doubt, and it is being done by degrees. The process of concentration is going on as rapidly as seems judicious.

Question. Do you know whether those posts are located at points most convenient for the delivery of supplies and stores to the Indians, and for transacting business with them?

Answer. Some of them are conveniently located for that purpose, but I presume that others are entirely out of the way of any utility in the matter of supplying and delivering stores to the Indians. They have not been located with a view to that.

Question. Can you say what posts could be more conveniently located, or whether any of them can be concentrated?

Answer. I do not think that my opinion upon that subject would be of much value.

Question. I am speaking, not from a military point of view, but from your stand-point, and I would ask whether these posts can be more conveniently located.

Answer. From my point of view entirely, as regarding the interests of the Indian service, I would not have any posts within ten or twelve miles of the immediate location of the Indians; and some posts, as in the case of the Hoopa Valley and Camp Gaston, at Round Valley, I would remove altogether, they seeming to me to be of no value, either for protec tion to the Indians or to the whites, as the time is gone by when either seems to be needed.

You asked me a question in regard to posts in Colorado. It will prob ably be found that in a short time it will be desirable to move one or

more of the military posts in or near Southwestern Colorado to points where they could better keep the white people off the Ute reservation. I do not think the military are needed in that region of country as a protection to the whites, for the simple reason that I think the Indians are better disposed than a portion of the whites.

Question. Can the military protect the reservation from the whites in those mining regions of Western Colorado?

Answer. Without the slightest difficulty.

Question. Is there a sufficient number of military there to protect that last reservation?

Answer. Certainly, sir. I should be very sorry to believe that all the people of Colorado are law-breakers and thieves.

Question. Is it regarded really as law-breaking and thieving for the miners to travel through those mountains and explore and dig the minerals?

Answer. It is not regarded in parts of the West as breaking the law to do anything to the detriment of the red man; to go upon his lands is not a crime in the view of a great many western people; but my expression, which was, perhaps, a little strong, is only applicable to those who make a special business of doing that thing?

Question. Have you ever been on that great Ute reservation, in Western Colorado?

Answer. I spent several weeks there last summer, and made negotiations with the Indians, by which they agreed to give up a portion of that reservation.

Question. Are there not a large number of miners and explorers working in that region?

Answer. There were, perhaps, two or three hundred miners on the Ute reservation. They commenced going into the San Juan country two or three years ago, and there was very great danger of its leading to serious difficulties with the Utes; not because the Utes were not patient, but because the discovery of rich mines had been made, and there was a disposition to make a general rush into that country, and to make a quarrel with the Utes to justify it. That danger has been obviated, provided Congress ratifies the arrangement made with the Indians for the purchase of that portion of their territory.

Having visited the country, I recommended and urged the President to enforce the law, by driving out the miners already upon the reservation. I was informed by a military officer, familiar with the case, that with a company of soldiers he would clear out the place in three weeks, without any bloodshed or difficulty. General Sherman took the other view of the question, and had the idea that it was impracticable to get it cleared out, and the result was that it was deemed better to suspend the order for ejecting the miners, and renew the attempt to purchase the country from the Indians.

Question. What portion of that reservation has been purchased? Answer. About one-fourth of it; over 3,000,000 acres. It comprises the part containing the mines already discovered, and the mountainous part supposed to have other mines.

By Mr. HUNTON:

Question. Are not the Indians in Western Colorado more disposed to hostilities and mischief than any other Indians you have visited? Answer. There are very few Indians whom I know of (with the exception of the Crows, I cannot name a single wild tribe) less disposed to hostilities than the Ute Indians of Western Colorado.

Question. Do you suppose that the presence of the military is ne cessary, or even proper, among the Indians; and is not their presence a source of irritation to the Indians?

Answer. It is in many places a source of irritation. For instance, for a military detachment to go into the neighborhood of these Indians, upon their reservation, would be an irritation and annoyance to them. Question. Is the presence of the military in all this country, from the Colorado to the Pacific coast, necessary to protect the whites against the Indians?

Answer. I think, from the information we have had in regard to Arizona, that, to a certain extent, the military is necessary.

Question. In regard to the protection of the Indians against the whites, do you not suppose or believe that the marshals of the United States, with their civil processes and with the power to call in a posse comitatus, would be more efficient than a military to protect the Indians against the whites?

Answer. No, sir; not in that country.

Question. When you say "that country," you mean the country from the Colorado to the Pacific coast?

Answer. Yes, sir; so far as I know it.

Question. There is a portion of that country where the military would be necessary?

Answer. I think so.

By Mr. GUNCKEL:

Question. Give your opinion as to the proposed transfer of the Indian Bureau from the Interior Department to the War Department. Answer. I cannot conceive of any important benefit to be derived from such a transfer except possibly in the matter of transportation; but I can see a great many evils to result from it.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Question. How do your contracts for transportation compare with the prices paid by the War Department, so far as you can learn?

Auswer. The contracts that have been supervised by the board of commissioners have been very similar in their range of prices to those of the War Department. I speak only of the contracts of which we had the direct supervision.

Question. Is it or is it not possible for the agents of the Indian Bureau to make contracts just as closely, and guard them as carefully, as the War Department can do?

Answer. It is possible, but it has not been usually the case, I think. Question. Is there anything in the nature of things which prevents its being done?

Answer. There is not. Perhaps I should explain one of the reasons why the War Department can do it more cheaply than the Indian Bureau. The War Department has the means of transportation in itself. It has its own wagons and mules at military posts; it has the officers who are engaged in that particular branch of business, and who can give a closer supervision to it. The board of commissioners recom. mended in their first and in several successive reports, that the transportation of the Indian Bureau should be made under the War Department contracts. There is nothing to prevent its being done except the will.

Question. Now give your reasons against any consolidation of the Indian Bureau with the War Department.

Answer. The evils of contact between the soldiers and the Indians in times past have been so great that any movement toward bringing them about again should be avoided. The discipline of the military department is demoralizing either to white men or to Indians in its manner of controlling men. It is simply a control of force, exclusive of reason. The example of the officers of the Army and of their authority over the soldiers is bad for the Indians. It encourages the hereditary ideas of the chiefs, who do nothing except command. The improvement and advancement of the Indian is greatly dependent on the manner in whch instructions in agricultural and mechanical arts are given to them. These instructions cannot be given to them by persons who cannot instruct also by example, and whose duties do not show them that labor is honorable. Indians are very apt to imitate the white people they see. The chiefs imitate the officers, and it is the ambition of all to become like those who command. This tends to make labor seem dishonorable. The women among the wild tribes are required to do the heav iest part of the labor, and the Indians look upon the soldiers very much as bearing the same relations in this respect to their officers that these women bear to them. The tendency is to degrade labor. The moral effect on the Indians of the example of the people who surround them, and of the common soldiers, and the conduct of the latter toward the Indian women, is a very great cause of degradation. The conduct of the soldiers in regard to temperance is also another evil. The soldiers are severely punished for intemperance, and the Indians, who are very observant, often see that the vices for which the soldiers are punished do not always receive punishment when committed by their superiors. Then, in the matter of school instruction, there is nothing in the character or pursuit of the military to adapt them to it. In the matter of the instruction by Christian missions, while a great many of the officers of the Army, and especially the higher officers, are gentlemen who would not descend to any direct interference with missions, simply on account of difference of opinion, yet in times past it has been the case. Missions and schools have been broken up, and advancement already made by Indian tribes destroyed, by the misfortune of getting an officer or a few officers whose proclivities happened to be totally in the opposite direction. There would be constant liability to this. In the early part of General Grant's administration, when agents were appointed from the military, there occurred instances where a good deal of improvement made among Indian tribes was overcome by the misfortune of getting an intemperate officer, or an officer, as agent, not sympathizing with the idea of the advancement of the race.

The independence of the military in the management of strictly professional duties, and their jealousy of any complaint or interference of civilians, would probably extend itself to their administration of Indian affairs, and render the correction of abuses on complaints from other than military sources more difficult than now.

By Mr. HUNTON:

Question. Has your attention ever been called to the number of Indians borne on the rolls of the Indian Department, as to whether that number was the true number of Indians or not?

Answer. Yes; I sometimes find that the number has been very much exaggerated.

Question. Is the Indian Bureau taking means to prevent that overenumeration?

Answer. It has been constantly endeavoring to do so within the last