I am sorry to say, are usually the very lowest class of creation, and, as before stated, are interested in Government contracts, or desirous of getting them.

Mr. GUNCKEL. If the Indians were gathered on reservations, would you have troops and forts within the reservation?

Answer. None whatever.

Mr. HUNTON. Or around the reservation?

Answer. No, sir; none whatever. The Indians have a feeling, amounting to horror, at the presence of troops in their vicinity, and we often found this trouble, in moving successfully among the Indians. this summer, harder to overcome than anything else. As soon as we came near an Indian camp many of them would run off to the hills, and we found that some miserable white man had anticipated our coming and had persuaded the Indians that we had a very large force of soldiers with us. It would take often two or three days before we could get these Indians back, to give us their attention. At the beginning of these discussions the first question would be: "Are there to be any soldiers brought here?" "If we are to be taken to a reservation are there to be any soldiers on the reservation?" We had to visit Belmont, Nev., three times before we could assemble Indians, on account of their dread of soldiers.

Mr. DONNAN. Had you soldiers with you?

Answer. No, sir; but the Indians were led to think there would be soldiers accompanying us. They would anticipate our coming three or four days.

Mr. NESMITH. This better class of white people, which you spoke of, had more dread of the soldiers than of the Indians?

A. Yes, sir. They had a dread of the demoralizing influence of the military.

By Mr. McDOUGALL:

Question. What is the moral condition of the military in that country?

Answer. It is pretty bad; it is very low. There is a great deal of debauchery among them in their relations with the Indians and a great deal of drunkenness among themselves.

Question. Do the Indians and soldiers get drunk together?

Answer. Yes. In very many cases the soldiers carry liquor to the Indians. The morale of the soldier out there will not compare favora bly with that of the Army during the last war. The committee is prob ably familiar with the class of men who now go into the Army as common soldiers, and when these men go out west there is no restraint whatever on them.

Question. Did you find the officers at those posts generally sober and temperate men, and attentive to their duties?

Answer. That is rather a delicate question. I have frequently met. officers who are exceptions, but, as a rule, they are gentlemen, and attentive to their duties.

Mr. NESMITH. You are speaking now of posts in the Rocky Mountain range. You were not on the Pacific coast?

Answer. I was not at any of the posts in California, Washington, or Oregon. I was in Eastern Idaho, Utah, Nevada, Arizona. In travelling there I have been very careful not to take a rumor nor to get information from men who I did not think were proper judges of what they were talking about. Those who traveled and visited other parts of the

Pacific coast corroborated the same opinion which I formed in regard to these, that is, the forts farther west and farther south.

Mr. DONNAN. Then, in your opinion, the moral status of the Indians would compare favorably with that either of the military or most of the settlers?

Answer. Yes, sir. I think so, most assuredly.

By Mr. GUNCKEL:

Question. What have been the industrial habits of the Indians which you visited?

Answer. I should think that one-fourth of their number, male and female, (for one labors as much as the other,) are engaged in the cultivation of the soil. They have, until disturbed by the advance of white settlements, been given accustomed agricultural pursuits. They are an agricultural people. In conversing with them, through an interpreter, I inquired especially with regard to that, and found that, as far back as they could remember, and could gather from their ancestors, they had been an agricultural people, and their general demand was for land. They would say, "Give us land; give us a chance to farm, and protect us in our farm when we get it." Those who were not inclined to farming were very desirous of engaging in stock raising. I give one of many cases that came to my attention: In Ruby Valley, Nevada, where they have been especially aided by the Government in farming, and furnished implements and stock, until the last three years, they tell me that, being unprotected, they lost the start they had had in stock, the brands of their cattle were altered and finally stolen by white ranchers, and when they endeavored to get their cattle back again they were threatened with soldiers, if they did not shut up their mouths and surrender their cattle. Then they were forced to sell their ploughs and other implements on account of their reduced extremity in surrendering their lands or their water-privilege, which amounts to the same thing; and last year there was considerable destitution among these Indians. Five years before they were very prosperous. When I submitted this reservation plan to them they said it was their only hope.

Question. Are any of them engaged in mechanical pursuits?

Answer. Not very many. In Arizona some few of them are, in the manufacture of blankets, &c.

Question. Have schools been established among any of those Indians with a view to educating their children?

Answer. Not any where we have been, except on the Pah Ute reservation, and within the last three months; and in that time fifteen of the children who were brought into that school have learned to spell short words, and some to write letters.

Question. Did you find any general disposition among parents to have schools established?

Answer. Very general, indeed. They say, "We want our children to read and write paper-talk the same as white men, and then we will know what the Government is doing for us, and white men among themselves and toward us."

By Mr. HUNTON :

Question. You stated a while ago that 30,000 Indians were carried on the rolls of the Department, when there were in fact only 10,000 of them. Did the Government furnish clothing and rations for the 30,000? Answer. The supply was on the basis of that number.

Question. Has that enumeration been corrected since you reported it ?

Answer. Not as yet, because the reports have not been published. Question. When did you submit your report to the Indian Bureau? Answer. Only verbally as yet. It will be submitted next week.

By Mr. ALBRIGHT:

Question. Then the agents actually received rations and clothing for 30,000 Indians, when there were but 10,000 to be fed and clothed?

Answer. Rations are not given to those Indians who are off reservations. All that are on reservations are fed and clothed.

Question. Then it is a fact that rations and clothing were drawn for a much larger number of Indians than there were to be subsisted and clothed?

Answer. I sustain that statement.

Question. Who got the benefit of that extra clothing and food? Answer. I may relate one or two instances which came under my observation: Right in Nevada I found that the Indians at Battle Mountain, on the Central Pacific Railroad, (taking a line south through Austin and Belmont,) represented one-third of the western band of Shoshones and treaty Indians. They had never received, since their treaty with the United States, any supplies from the Government; and when I met them with supplies they wanted to know what they were for, as they never had received anything before. I told them that they had been entitled to them for five years. That led me to investigate the matter. A prominent member of the Nevada legislature told me that if I would go to a certain mining district I would find there a man who had, within the last eighteen months, received an entire wagon-load of Government sup plies, intended for the Indians, and had been instructed by the agent to distribute them among the Indians in his immediate locality. He gave them a few cups of flour and a little tobacco, and he put the balance of the wagon-load of supplies into his store and sold them.

Question. Did this man get the supplies from the Indian agent?
Answer. Yes.

Question. Was he connected with the Indian agency at all?

Answer. No, sir. It was work delegated to him. I found that a large portion of the supplies of Utah and Nevada was distributed in such a manner as that. Instead of being distributed by the agent, they were delegated to some unofficial person not in any way connected with the Government; some rauchero, or some merchant, or some stock-raiser. Question. Then not only was clothing and rations issued for a much larger number of Indians than were in existence, but even the Indians who were entitled to them did not get them?

Answer. That is the case, certainly; and that is especially true in Utah. There, until within the past twelve months, as a rule, these goods have been distributed through the Mormon bishops, and Brigham Young got all the credit of the distribution.

Question. The Indians were led to suppose that the goods came from Brigham Young.

Answer. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How did these Mormon bishops get control of the goods?

Answer. The Indian agent delegated the distribution of these supplies to the Mormon bishops.

Mr. NESMITH. Who was the agent?

Answer. That has been the custom with nearly all of the agents in Utah, but more especially with the last two or three agents.

The CHAIRMAN. Then the bishops of the Mormon church were the instruments for the distribution of supplies for the Indians in Utah ? Answer. Yes, sir; very generally.

Question. And they have perverted the distribution for the purpose of private gain?

Answer. That is, it was promotion of interests of the Mormon church. Mr. GUNCKEL. Have you reported this fact, with the names of the agents to the Indian Bureau ?

Answer. Yes, sir; quite recently.

Mr. ALBRIGHT. According to treaty stipulations, about how much is the mean value of what each Indian is annually entitled to?

Answer. We visited between sixty and seventy tribes, each of which received different amounts of annuities, and so, the rate per Indian would vary. I should think the average would be about $3 a year. Question. Have you ever been similarly employed before? Answer. No, sir.

WASHINGTON, D. C., January 15, 1874.

FELIX R. BRUNOT sworn and examined.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Question. Are you officially connected with the Indian Department? Answer. I am chairman of the board of Indian commissioners, which is connected in a certain way with the Indian Department, simply as a supervisory body authorized by Congress.

Question. State the length of time you have been connected with the Indian Department.

Answer. I have been occupying my present position about five years. Shortly after the incoming of President Grant's administration there had been very much distrust of the management of Indian affairs; and Congress, instead of appropriating in the usual way, appropriated a sum of $2,000,000, in gross, to be applied in the management of Indian affairs, and authorized the President to appoint a commission to supervise the expenditure and management of that money. I was appointed on that commission. Subsequently Congress, from time to time, has extended the commission, and added to its duties, which are to supervise the expenditure of the Indian fund, and, to a certain extent, the purchase of the goods and the making of contracts.

Question. Have you been brought personally in contact with any Indian tribes?

Answer. I have visited a good many of the tribes and agencies-that being a portion of the duties intrusted to us.

Question. State in what part of the country you visited these tribes. Answer. I visited them in Montana, Colorado, the Indian Territory, Idaho, Washington, Oregon, California, and along the Pacific Railroad incidentally.

Question. Have you visited the Sioux Nation?

Answer. I visited the Sioux at the Red Cloud agency and at Fort Laramie.

Question. Have you visited the Indians in Texas and Arizona? Answer. I have not visited the Indians in Texas and Arizona. Question. Have you visited those in Western and Southern Colorado? Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Have you been at the Great Ute reservation?

Answer. Yes; I was at the Ute reservation last summer and the summer before. I made a negotiation with the Utes last summer.

Question. State the disposition of those Indians toward the people of the United States as to friendliness or unfriendliness.

Answer. Without any experience in regard to the Indians of Arizona and Texas, I must say that I do not know of any tribe of Indians that is not, at present, friendly to the United States. Some of the wilder tribes, as the Sioux, and probably the Kiowas, Comanches, and Cheyennes and Arapahoes, have individuals who are unfriendly to the whites, but as to tribes, I believe they are all friendly to the white people.

Question. State what tribes require the repression of military force to prevent their making inroads or depredations on the white settle

ments.

Answer. The Kiowas and Comanches at the Fort Sill reservation, it is said, have individuals among them who raid on the borders of Texas. A portion of the Sioux have never been under the control of the authorities at agencies. They are the Sioux who live in the northern parts of Wyoming and Montana, and a portion of them are said to be hostile to the whites. The Cheyennes and Arapahoes have been, but they are at peace now.

Question. So far as the Indians in the Indian Territory proper are concerned, do they require the presence of military force to prevent in. roads on the whites, or to prevent the whites making inroads on them? Answer. There are some of those tribes, particularly the wilder tribes, who require the presence of military. The Cheyennes and Arapahoes, Comanches, and Kiowas, at Fort Sill reservation, I think require mili tary force within reach of the agents, in order to be kept under proper control.

Question. What have you to say of the Ute reservation in Western Colorado?

Answer. The Utes do not require a military force in their immediate vicinity.

Question. Either to prevent the whites making inroads on them or to prevent their making inroads on whites?

Answer. I do not think they require the military for either purpose, in the immediate vicinity of the agencies. I think that the posts, as at present located, are all proper for the present.

Question. Could any military force or posts in the neighborhood of the Indians be dispensed with, with safety to either party?

Answer. So far as I know, in regard to the posts in Western Colorado, I think it is not desirable that they should be dispensed with, just at this time. I would remark in this connection that it is possible (although that is a matter entirely for the military authority) that a change of location, in one or two of those places, would be advantageous.

Question. What have you to say as to military posts in the Territory of Wyoming?

Answer. I suppose Fort Laramie would be a necessary post, and probably Fort Fetterman also. I cannot see how they are to be very well dispensed with.

Question. What have you to say of the military posts in Dakota and Montana?

Answer. I am not sufficiently familiar with that country to be able to speak about it.

Question. Are you familiar with the military posts in Idaho?