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sufficient self-defensive power, either to the Executive or Judiciary Department.
Mr. RUTLEDGE was strenuous against postponing; and complained much of the tediousness of the proceedings.
Mr. Ellsworth held the same language. We grow more and more sceptical as we proceed. If we do not decide soon, we shall be unable to come to any decision.
The question for postponement passed in the negative,-Delaware and Maryland only being in the affirmative.
Mr. WILLIAMSON moved to change, "two-thirds of each House," into "three-fourths,” as requisite to overrule the dissent of the President. He saw no danger in this, and preferred giving the power to the President alone, to admitting the Jụdges into the business of legislation.
Mr. Wilson seconds the motion; referring to and repeating the ideas of Mr. CarroLL.
On this motion for three-fourths, instead of twothirds; it passed in the affirmative, —Connecticut, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, aye—6; New Hampshire, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Georgia, no—4; Pennsylvania, divided.
Mr. Madison, observing that if the negative of the President was confined to bills, it would be evaded by acts under the form and name of Resolutions, votes, &c., proposed that “or resolve,” should be added after “bill,” in the beginning of section 13, with an exception as to votes of adjournment, &c. After a short and rather confused conversation on the subject, the question was put and rejected, the
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votes being as follows, Massachusetts, Delaware, North Carolina, aye—3; New Hampshire, Connecticut, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, South Carolina, Georgia, no—8.
"Ten days (Sundays excepted),” instead of “seven," were allowed to the President for returning bills with his objections,—New Hampshire and Massachusetts only voting against it.
The thirteenth Section of Article 6, as amended was then agreed to. 310
Thursday, August 16TH.
In Convention,-Mr. RANDOLPH, having thrown into a new form the motion putting votes, resolutions, &c. on a footing with bills, renewed it as follows
Every order, resolution, or vote, to which the concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of adjournment, and in the cases hereinafter mentioned) shall be presented to the President for his revision; and before the same shall have force, shall be approved by him, or, being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the rules and limitations prescribed in the case of a bill.”
Mr. SHERMAN thought it unnecessary, except as to votes taking money out of the treasury, which might be provided for in another place.
On the question as moved by Mr. RANDOLPH, it was agreed to, -New Hampshire, Connecticut, Penn
sylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, aye—9; New Jersey, no—1; Massachusetts, not present.
The amendment was made a fourteenth section of Article 6.
Article 7, Sect. 1, was then taken up.
Mr. L. Martin asked, what was meant by the Committee of Detail in the expression,—“duties,” and “imposts.” If the meaning were the same, the former was unnecessary; if different, the matter ought to be made clear.
Mr. Wilson. Duties are applicable to many objects to which the word imposts does not relate. The latter are appropriated to commerce, the former extend to a variety of objects, as stamp duties, &c.
Mr. CARROLL reminded the Convention of the great difference of interests among the States; and doubts the propriety, in that point of view, of letting a majority be a quorum.
Mr. Mason urged the necessity of connecting with the powers of levying taxes, duties, &c., the prohibition in Article 6, Sect. 4, “that no tax should be laid on exports.” He was unwilling to trust to its being done in a future article. He hoped the Northern States did not mean to deny the Southern this security. It would hereafter be as desirable to the former, when the latter should become the most populous. He professed his jealousy for the productions of the Southern, or, as he called them, the staple, States. He moved to insert the following amendment : “ provided, that no tax, duty, or imposition, shall be laid by the Legislature of the United States on articles exported from any State.”
Mr. SHERMAN had no objection to the proviso bere, other than that it would derange the parts of the Report as made by the Committee, to take them in such an order.
Mr. RUTLEDGE. It being of no consequence in what order points are decided, he should vote for the clause as it stood, but on condition that the subsequent part relating to negroes should also be agreed to.
Mr. GOUVERNEUR MORRIS considered such a proviso as inadmissible any where. It was so radically objectionable, that it might cost the whole system the support of some members. He contended that it would not in some cases be equitable to tax imports without taxing exports; and that taxes on exports would be often the most easy and proper of the two.
Mr. Madison. First, the power of laying taxes on exports is proper in itself; and as the States cannot with propriety exercise it separately, it ought to be vested in them collectively. Secondly, it might with particular advantage be exercised with regard to articles in which America was not rivalled in foreign markets, as tobacco, &c. The contract between the French Farmers-General and Mr. MORRIS, stipulating that, if taxes should be laid in America on the export of tobacco, they should be paid by the Farmers, showed that it was understood by them, that the price would be thereby raised in America, and consequently the taxes be paid by the European consumer. Thirdly, it would be unjust to the States whose produce was exported by their neighbours, to leave it subject to be taxed by the latter. This was a grievance which had already
filled New Hampshire, Connecticut, New Jersey, Delaware, and North Carolina with loud complaints, as it related to imports, and they would be equally authorized by taxes by the States on exports. Fourthly, the Southern States, being inost in danger and most needing naval protection, could the less complain, if the burthen should be somewhat heaviest on them. And finally, we are not providing for the present moment only; and time will equalize the situation of the States in this matter. He was, for these reasons, against the motion.
Mr. WILLIAMSON considered the clause proposed against taxes on exports, as reasonable and necessary.
Mr. ELLSWORTH was against taxing exports; but thought the prohibition stood in the most proper place, and was against deranging the order reported by the Committee.
Mr. Wilson was decidedly against prohibiting general taxes on exports. He dwelt on the injustice and impolicy of leaving New Jersey, Connecticut, &c., any longer subject to the exactions of their commercial neighbours.
Mr. GERRY thought the Legislature could not be trusted with such a power. It might ruin the country. It might be exercised partially, raising one and depressing another part of it.
Mr. GOUVERNEUR MORRIS. However the Legislative power may be formed, it will, if disposed, be able to ruin the country. He considered the taxing of exports to be in many cases highly politic. Virginia has found her account in taxing tobacco. All countries having peculiar articles tax the exporta