MARCH, 1824.]

Amendments to the Constitution-Caucus System.

[SENATE.

BOUR) had stated that he (Mr. TAYLOR) had been his instructor in respect to caucusing, and that he had introduced him into the first caucus he ever attended. His colleague, if he had received any instructions from him on the sub

He had been a very apt scholar in his lessons, and had far outstripped his master. But his colleague was greatly mistaken. He had never attended a caucus, either in Congress or elsewhere, for the purpose of nominating candidates for offices. Such proceedings he considered very dangerous, and altogether unconstitutional.

gress, in their choice of a President. But, would not this influence operate as strongly, nay, much more so, upon the House of Representatives, voting as States upon that question, under the present system? The gaining one member of the joint meeting would be no more than gain-ject, had certainly profited greatly by them. ing one vote out of the two hundred and sixtyone, while the gaining one member in the House of Representatives might be gaining a twenty-fourth part of the whole. When a State has but one Representatives, this would be obviously the case, as it would be, when the Representatives of a State should be so divided as that the change of one would give the vote of the State to one candidate or to the other-so that, by possibility, the gaining of thirteen votes might change the fate of a Presidential election; take it from one candidate, and give it to another. In the latter case, the danger would be truly formidable; in the former, it would be no greater than resorting a second time to the Electors.

Mr. TAYLOR, of Virginia, said he was opposed to the district system, because it had a tendency to deprive all the States, great and small, of a portion of their power, and because it interfered with the separate character of the States, as independent sovereignties. He illustrated this view of the subject by several remarks, and then proceeded to state that he concurred in the opinion that had been expressed in debate, that the district system was calculated to bring the election of President into the House of Representatives. Mr. T. fully concurred in the views of the gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. HAYNE,) that great evils would arise from the constant interference of Congress in the Presidential election, and that any amendment to the constitution would be very objectionable which would have the effect of making that interference more frequent. He said it had been a great object with him for many years to effect some amendment to the constitution, which might secure the election of the President, without troubling Congress with it. He might not live to see that desirable object accomplished, but he hoped the gentleman from South Carolina would.

As to the question of a Congressional caucus for the nomination of candidates for the Presidency, Mr. T. said he never had any doubt that such a nomination was a clear violation of the spirit of the constitution. On that subject, he believed, his sentiments were in print. It appeared to him preposterous for gentlemen to contend that, in making such a nomination, they acted in their private capacities. Mr. T. here entered into some arguments to prove that members of Congress could not meet at the Seat of Government and nominate a candidate for the Presidency, without making it a public business. The people would so regard it, and it would produce the same effect as if the nomination was made by members in their legislative capacities.

His honorable friend and colleague (Mr. BAR

The meeting to which the gentleman had alluded was held by some of the members of the Virginia Legislature, for the single purpose of preparing resolutions to be proposed in the Legislature. Mr. T. said he did not agree with the gentlemen on the other side, that informal meetings for preparing bills or resolutions to be proposed to legislative bodies had any resemblance to a Congressional caucus, intended to transfer from the States their constitutional check and influence in the election of a President to Congress. It had been said, indeed, that a Congressional caucus acted only in their private characters. To illustrate this assertion: we have all heard of what is called a bull dance. Suppose sixty or seventy of the gravest and most respectable private citizens should assemble and entertain the spectators with jigs, rigadoons, and hornpipes, would not their private characters be estimated in contemplating the exhibition? But, if the same number of members of Congress should assemble and exhibit a similar scene, would not their public characters be also estimated? So, when assembled for nominating a President, it is their public characters, and those only, which are intended to influence the election; and such an influence destroys that of the States, bestowed by the constitution for self-preservation, by transferring to Congress a power conferred on the States. Their characters will follow them into a caucus, either for the purpose of a bull dance, or for nominating a President.

Mr. T. said that he had not previously mentioned the word caucus in this debate, nor should he have now done so, had he not been personally called upon; but that, if the resolutions for amending the constitution should be taken up, it would be necessary to consider that subject as having a tendency towards that consolidated and concentrated form of government towards which we were verging with awful rapidity. At this juncture, its thorough examination would produce an excitement inconsistent with a discreet consideration of the amendments; and therefore he concurred in the proposed postponement.

Mr. KELLY, of Alabama, next took the floor, and began with observing that he would endeavor, so far as it was practicable, to withdraw the subject under debate from the fog with which it had been enveloped, and to conforin

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Amendments to the Constitution-Caucus System.

[MARCH, 1824. assumed a much wider range than the strict rules of order would authorize; he himself was not then in the chair; and that he conceived it to be his duty, at this point, to confine the discussion to the precise question before the Senate. Mr. KELLY said it was his intention to have replied to some of the opinions heretofore expressed in debate, in favor of the meeting alluded to; but, as the Chair had decided that it was not in order to do so, he should submit to the decision, and take his seat.

Mr. BARBOUR, who was in the chair when the discussion alluded to commenced, felt it his duty to explain the reasons which had induced him to allow a wider latitude to that debate than had been indicated to be proper, by the Chair, at this time. It was in consequence of his peculiar situation, in connection with that meeting, that he had refrained from calling gentlemen to order who had introduced its discussion. He considered that it was better that the liberty of debate should be sometimes abused, than that it should be curtailed-the more especially, as every gentleman stood answerable before the country for any remarks he might make in this Senate.

After the lapse of a few minutes, and after another gentleman had risen to speak, the VICE PRESIDENT observed, that the gentleman from Alabama was entitled to the floor, if he chose to progress.

to the rule of debate prescribed by the Chair. | He remarked that the whole discussion on this caucus question had arisen from a want of forbearance on the part of the gentlemen who had advocated that measure. The gentleman from New York (Mr. KING) had been charged with a change of opinion on the subject of the constitutional amendments, and had risen in his defence, and justified his disposition to delay acting on the subject at this crisis, on account of the central power which now presumed to select candidates for the Presidency and Vice Presidency of the United States. Whether he actually used the cabalistic and portentous word, caucus, or not, I hold it, said Mr. K., immaterial. He certainly spoke of a central power that had arisen in this Government, not known to the constitution, and unfriendly to the liberties of the nation; and whether he called it a caucus or not, he certainly did, said Mr. K., assure the gentlemen that he had no unfriendly feelings towards any person who differed from him in opinion. Now, said Mr. K., this remark was received with the most extraordinary sensitiveness on the part of these gentlemen; they had, with an ultra chivalrous esprit du corps, immediately rushed into a contest on the caucus question, and had entered into arguments in support of that measure. Mr. K. repeated, that a very small portion of forbearance, in that stage of the debate, would have prevented the discussion altogether; but, as gentlemen had Mr. KELLY then rose, and observed that he thought proper to assume a different course, it understood himself to have been deprived of the had certainly become necessary that their re- floor by the decision of the Chair; to which the marks should be answered and their arguments VICE PRESIDENT replied, that the merits of the refuted. This had been done by the gentleman question before the Senate might be discussed, from South Carolina, in respect to the argu- and that the gentleman might progress. Mr. ments which were urged on the other side, be- KELLY then observed, that he would not atfore he addressed the Senate. But other argu-tempt to evade the decision of the Chair, and ments had still been advanced, and to these, Mr. K. said, he would now proceed to reply. Waiving, for the present, the constitutional question, he would notice the argument of the necessity of a caucus as a party measure. Now, without arguing how far a caucus could be justified on that ground, he would say that such a measure could certainly not be justified as a party measure, where only a small minority could be got to unite in it. He had always understood that the very first principle of the Republican party, to which he belonged, was, that a majority only could act or speak for the party, and this, indeed, seemed to be a sacred principle, that could in no case be disregarded. But the gentlemen of the present day have conquered the difficulty that embarrassed Archimedes: when he stood a solitary Colossus on the vortex of mechanical science, he exclaimed, "Give me a place to stand, and I'll move the world." Gentlemen have stricken from this sentence the "dos pou sto," and the article "kai," and retain only the "ton kosmon kinezo." They now propose to raise the world without a fulcrum-here Mr. K. was called to order by the Chair. The PRESIDENT said that, in his opinion, the debate had, on the former days,

that if he could not be permitted to reply to political doctrines preached here for home consumption, he had no wish to speak.

Mr. BRANCH, of North Carolina, asked the indulgence of the Senate for the purpose of submitting, for their consideration, a few thoughts in relation to the important subject-matter under discussion. He said it was due to the State he had the honor in part to represent, for him to support the amendment to the constitution, which proposes to establish a uniform mode for the appointment of Electors of President and Vice President, and to himself, to oppose the indefinite postponement of the various proposi tions now pending. With the sentiment of the Legislature of the State he most heartily concurred.

In entering on the subject, he said that he should endeavor to conform to the decision of the Chair, and that he would not intentionally bring into discussion matter foreign from the true question before the Senate; for he firmly believed that the decision of the presiding officer was correct, and ought to be enforced.

It would become necessary for him, however, to animadvert on the constitution as it is at present, and to call the attention of the Senate

MARCH, 1824.]

Amendments to the Constitution-Caucus System.

[SENATE.

to the pernicious practices which had obtained | Secretary, or, at all events, I will provide you and grown up under it, which threatened, ulti- with a good berth, suited to your wants, if not mately, to subvert the liberties of the people. to your capacity. And thus we shall barter It was the duty of an able surgeon to probe the away the rights and privileges of the people, at wound to the bottom, that he might be the the expense of the best interests of the country, better enabled to devise and apply an effective and the charter of our liberties. The mischief remedy. is abundantly manifest. Let us not, then, turn a deaf ear to the admonitions of duty and the voice of an enlightened community, but rather let us have the magnanimity to return-to leave the things which belong to the constitution, even though, in doing so, we part with some of our influence. The President and Congress were intended, by the wise framers of our constitution, to act as checks, each upon the other; but, by the system at present practised, they lose the benefit of this salutary provision. For, as has been observed by my honorable colleague, the Congress have always made the President, and will continue to do it. Yes, sir, the voice of that orthodox and experienced statesman has said so, and I have no reason to doubt the correctness of his assertion.

It would not be denied, he said, that it was the intention of the Convention which framed the constitution to give to the people the election of their Chief Magistrate. But what have we been told by my highly esteemed friend and colleague, (Mr. MACON,) who is certainly high authority? Why, that the President had, since the days of General WASHINGTON, been always elected by Congress.

This, said Mr. B., is the most alarming declaration, and surely it becomes necessary that something should be done to prevent that from taking place in future. The constitution provides that the President shall be elected by the people, through their Electors; but we find that a plan has been found out, setting aside this provision-the President is to be chosen, and the people are called upon only to conform to the will of their rulers. Now, if these unconstitutional proceedings are to be continued, and the President hereafter is to be chosen by Congress acting in caucus, it is manifest that the constitution will not only be practically altered, but that a door will be opened to the greatest abuses and corruption. We will soon find that the President will be chosen only by means of intrigue and management with the members of Congress.

Is not the mischief, therefore, abundantly evident? Either make some alteration, so as to give efficiency to the vote of the people, or let them no longer be deluded with the fallacious idea that they exercise the power themselves. It is not worth while to disguise the fact from ourselves. We all see it. Indeed, it must be manifest to the most superficial observer, that the different departments of the Government, instead of acting as checks on each other, are naturally drawn to play into each other's hands; particularly the Executive and Congress. The gentleman from New Jersey, (Mr. DICKERSON,) to whom I have listened with much pleasure, has failed to assign any reason why it is unsafe to return the election to the Electors. I must therefore presume, said Mr. B., that none exists.

It ought not to be said, observed Mr. B., that we are incapable of acting on this important subject calmly and dispassionately. Our pres ent session is comparatively unlimited; it is, in truth, the long session; our table is not burdened with important business; we sit but two or three hours in the day, and but five days out of the week; this objection cannot, therefore, be sustained. And as to the Senate of the United States, composed of gentlemen advanced in years, possessing a character, and justly, too, for their discretion and intelligence, being hurried away by passion or excitement, I cannot, said Mr. B., believe it for a moment. We are all convinced that no alteration can be made in time to affect the approaching Presidential election. Hence, whatever excitement may be felt, it will not be of a pernicious character, but will rather tend to elicit the best and most effectual remedy. If we suffer the present propitious moment to pass by, what may we expect? Why, sir, that the nation will again fall into a state of apathy, and that nothing will be done until the people are again called on to elect another Chief Magistrate, when we shall have to deprecate the recurrence of all the mischief at present complained of, and which threatens such alarming consequences to the peace and security of society.

Mr. MACON rose in explanation of the allusion Let us then, said Mr. B., throw off this made by his honorable colleague to his remark, usurped authority, and return to the people the that the President had always been, with the exrights of which they have been wrongfully ception of General Washington, elected by Conshorn. From whence do the members of Congress. He repeated the observation, with a firm gress derive the power to elect the President of the United States? I hazard nothing, said Mr. B., in saying, that the power is not to be found in the constitution, and that it is, consequently, an encroachment upon the sovereignty of the people: the more alarming, inasmuch as it is exercised in the corrupt atmosphere of Executive patronage and influence. Make me President, and I will make you a Minister, a

conviction of its correctness, that this had been the case, and, in his opinion, it always would be the case. If the members of Congress did not act in caucus, they would influence the people in some other way. The people were always writing to the members to get their opinion upon the different candidates, and their opinions would have great effect. Mr. M. said he was willing to alter the constitution, but Congress,

said he, will elect the President, be the constitution what it may.

The question was then put, on postponing the whole subject indefinitely, and decided in the affirmative-yeas 30, nays 13, as follows:

YEAS.-Messrs. Barbour, Barton, Bell, Brown, Chandler, Clayton, D'Wolf, Eaton, Edwards, Findlay, Hayne, Holmes of Mississippi, Johnson of Kentucky, Henry Johnson, Josiah S. Johnston, Kelly, King of Alabama, King of New York, Knight, Lanman, Lloyd of Massachusetts, Mills, Palmer, Parrott, Seymour, Talbot, Taylor of Indiana, Taylor of Virginia, Van Dyke, and Williams.

NAYS.-Messrs. Benton, Branch, Dickerson, Elliott, Holmes of Maine, Lowrie, Macon, Noble, Ruggles, Smith, Thomas, Van Buren, and Ware.

[MARCH, 1824

under the act of Congress of the 12th of April, 1814;
and, above all, from the fact that, by an order issued
from the War Department, the 15th December, 1818,
a line drawn from the source of the Koamichi, to the
source of the Poteau, was fixed as the limit of west-
ern settlements in Arkansas, and settlers west of that
line were ordered to be removed to the east of it; in
the execution of which order, by the commanding
officer of Fort Smith, on the Arkansas River, the set-
tlers in the now counties of Miller and Crawford were
not removed, because found to be on the eastern side
of the said line. The third alternative is, therefore,
adopted by the committee, as well for the reasons
growing out of the objections to the first and second,
as because a line further west will divide into two
equal parts the territory of the United States upon the
Arkansas, east of the Mexican boundary, and will give
to the future State of Arkansas that power and mag-

So it was resolved that the said resolution be nitude, to which, as a frontier State, in relation both indefinitely postponed.

Western Boundary Line of the Territory of
Arkansas.

Mr. BENTON, from the select committee, to whom was referred, on the 17th December last, the memorial of the General Assembly of the Territory of Arkansas, made a report, accompanied by a bill to fix the western boundary line of the Territory of Arkansas; which were read, and the bill passed to a second reading.-The report is as follows:

That the memorialists represent that the line, prescribed by an act of the last session of Congress, for the western boundary of the Territory of Arkansas, will pass through the counties of Miller and Crawford, and leave a proportion of the population of the said counties on the outside of said line and beyond the jurisdiction of said Territory; and they pray that the line may be altered, and fixed so far west as will include the residue of said counties and their inhabitants.

to a foreign nation and numerous Indian tribes, it will be justly entitled.

The adjustment of the Indian boundary lines not being a subject of legislation, the committee do not make any report upon the existing boundary between the Choctaws and white settlers in the Territory of Arkansas. They leave that subject to the operation of treaties made or to be made, and report a bill solely for the extension of the western boundary line of the Territory of Arkansas.*

THURSDAY, March 25.
Lake Superior Copper Mines.

Mr. BENTON, from the Committee on Indian Affairs, to whom the subject was referred by a resolution of the Senate of the 23d instant, rePorted a bill to authorize the President to hold a treaty with the Indians owning the country on the south side of Lake Superior, for the purpose of extinguishing their title to certain dis tricts supposed to contain valuable mines of copper; which was read, and passed to a second reading.

General Appropriation Bill.

The unfinished business of yesterday, being the bill from the other House, "making appro priations for the support of Government, for the year 1821," with the several amendments proposed thereto, by the Committee on Finance of

The bill which accompanied this report, and which was passed into a law, (which was afterwards most unfortunately repealed,) extended the western boundary of the territory forty miles west, upon a breadth of three hundred; and from the excellence of the territory added would have made Ar

the bill, as it passed, and became a law:

By information derived from the Delegate of said Territory, the committee are informed that the number of inhabitants thus cut off from the government under which they had lived, amounts to about twelve hundred souls; and the inquiries which present them-kansas a State of nearly the first class. The following was selves, are: 1st. Whether the said inhabitants shall be left as they are, without law to govern them? 2d. or, Whether they shall be compelled to come within the present limits of the Territory? 3d. or, Whether the western boundary shall be extended to include them?

The first alternative the committee reject, for reasons too obvious to require specification. To the second, many objections are found, arising from the organized state of the counties; the claims which mary of the inhabitants set up for pre-emption rights,

Be it enacted, &c., That the western boundary line of the Territory of Arkansas shall begin at a point forty miles west of the southwest corner of the State of Missouri, and run south, to the right bank of the Red River, and thence, down the river, and with the Mexican boundary, to the line of the State of Louisiana, any law heretofore made, to the contrary notwithstanding.

SEC. 2. And be it further enacted, That the sum of two thousand dollars, to defray the expense of running and marking said boundary line, to be expended under the directions of the President of the United States, be, and the same hereby is, appropriated, to be paid out of any money in the Treasury, not otherwise appropriated.

Public Agent to take care of U. S. Interest, &c.

the Senate, was again taken up in Committee of | fidence which harmony between the co-ordinato the Whole.

Thus, soon after General WASHINGTON became President, Baron Steuben was sent to General Halderman, the Governor and CommanderThe Committee on Finance propose to amend in-chief of Canada, to ascertain whether he the bill, by striking out the sum of $18,000, ap-northern posts, pursuant to the treaty of peace; was authorized and prepared to deliver the propriated "for the payment of the salaries of the Commissioner and Arbitrator, under the first article of the Treaty of Ghent, half the salary of their secretary, and half the contingent expenses of said commission;" and to insert in lieu thereof, the sum of "$2,500," together with the unexpended balance of the last year's appropriation for this purpose.