Ife felt no such apprehension. He was willing to trust to the wisdom and discretion and justice of those who come after us.

MR. VAN VECHTEN was disposed to have the pledge received in the constitution. Money had been borrowed upon the pledge of the state, that the duties on salt, and the taxes arising from transportation on the canal, should be appropriated to the extinction of the debt thus incurred. Such a pledge would be binding on individuals, and if so, it was binding upon the legislature, and as they were the representatives of the people, the people must be bound by the acts of the legislature. We are told that this looks like a want of confidence in the people of the west. Are we not all equally bound? This pledge cannot be broken without destroying our government; as individuals could not do it, we cannot do it as a public body. This is a subject in which the people in the western part of the state are deeply interested, and attempts have already been made to modify or exempt the duty on salt. If these attempts have been already made, what may we not expect in future. It will be wise in us, and discreet, to fix this whilst it is within our power, and let the western people know that this pledge must be redeemed.

The question on Mr. Russell's amendment, was thereupon taken by ayes and noes, and decided in the negative, as follows:

NOES-Messrs. Bacon, Baker, Barlow, Breese, Briggs, Buel, Child, D. Clark, R. Clarke, Cramer, Dodge, Dubois, Duer, Dyckman, Edwards, Fairlie, Fish, Frost, Hallock, Hogeboom, Hunt, Hunter, Jay, Jones, Kent, King, Lansing, Lefferts, A. Livingston, P. R. Livingston, Millikin, Moore, Munro, Paulding, Price, Radcliff, Reeve, Rhinelander, Richards, Rockwell, Root, Rose, Sanders, N. Sanford, R. Sandford, Seaman, Sharpe, Sheldon, I. Smith, Starkweather, Steele, I. Sutherland, Sylvester, Tallmadge, Townsend, Tripp, Van Horne, J. R. Van Rensselaer, S. Van Rensselaer, Van Vechten, Very bryck, Ward, A. Webster, Wendover, Wheaton, Woods, Woodward, Yates, Young-69.

AYES-Messrs. Beckwith, Brinkerhoff, Brooks, Burroughs, Carpenter, Carer, Case, Clyde, Collins, Day, Eastwood, Fenton, Ferris, Howe, Humphrey, Huntington, M Call, Nelson, Park, Pike, Pumpelly, Rosebrugh, Ross, Russell, Seely, R. Smith, Swift, Taylor, Townley, Van Fleet, E. Webster, Wheeler, Wooster-33.

MR. KING moved to strike out that part of the section which related to lotteries. Carried.

The committee then rose and reported, and the Convention adjourned:

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 17, 1821. The Convention met at the usual hour, when the journals of yesterday were read and approved.

THE LEGISLATIVE DEPARTMENT.

The Convention then again resolved itself into a committee of the whole on the unfinished business of yesterday (the legislative department.)—Mr. Van Buren in the chair.

The question was on so much of the 12th section of the report of the select committee as relates to a constitutional guarantee of the salt duties and tolls, to the completion and reimbursements of the expenditures in relation to the grand canal.

MR. NELSON moved to insert after the word" aforesaid" in the twenty-third line, the following words :

"Nor the duties on goods sold at auction aforesaid, as established by the act of the legislature, passed April 5, 1817, nor the amount of the revenue established by the act of the legislature of March 30, 1820, in lieu of the tax upon steamboat passengers."

Mr. Nelson explained the object of his amendment. He said the select committee had fixed in the constitution the amount of the salt tax, and taken away all legislative discretion as to its reduction. The act of 1819, which imposed the salt tax, and appropriated it to the canal fund, also appropriated to the same object the duty on sales at auction and the steam-boat tax. If it was right and just that the one tax should be fixed in the constitution, it was right that the two others should be so fixed. If the moral integrity of the people of this state required that the salt tax should be pledged in the constitution for the benefit of the canal fund, it also required that the duty on sales at auction and steam-boat revenue should be pledged.

MR. KING referred to the act of the legislature. The duties on salt were specifically enumerated. So the tolls on the canal were pledged, but no rate specified. The report is that the rates shall not be diminished, though they may be increased. The canal commissioners, it is understood, have fixed tolls on the canal at a very low rate, which may probably hereafter be increased. The duties on sales at auction must be graduated by the duties imposed on them by the government of the United States. The government of this state, in case of collision, would probably have to yield, or the business would be transferred to other states where no such constitutional impediment existed. The amount of these duties is in its nature uncertain; and he did not think it possible to define that amount.

The specific revenue intended by the report to be guaranteed, is that which is connected with the expenditure and arising out of it. The steam-boat tax and auction duties were indeed made auxiliary to the carrying on of this great work but cannot be said to be naturally connected with it.

The commutation of the steam-boat tax was certainly some evidence of the facility with which legislatures may interfere with pledges, however solemnly made, and tended to shew the expediency of a constitutional recognition. These revenues, especially that derived from sales at auction, were precarious, and not considerable in amount. On the whole, he submitted to the committee whether it was expedient so to fix down the duties on sales at auction, as that by the interposition of the general government, all revenue derivable from them may utterly cease.

MR. SHARPE was in favour of the amendment. He was disposed to gurantee all the pledges that had been made by the legislature. The steam-boat commutation was justified on two grounds. The citizens of other states questioned the constitutionality of taxing them for passing through the state, and should the question be decided unfavourably to the law, all that revenue would be lost for ever. Besides, it was to continue coeval with the exclusive privilege of the steam-boat company, and would secure to the people of this state a certain revenue as long as that monopoly existed.

On the score of economy-it would not be lost sight of, that the commissioners of the canal fund were authorised to borrow two millions of dollars, and will probably be able to borrow at ten per cent. less, than if the fund is left to float upon legislative discretion.

MR. Ross. I perceive, Mr. Chairman, by the vote taken yesterday, on the amendment submitted by the gentleman from Erie, (Mr. Russell,) that the determination of this Convention is, to fix in the constitution a perpetual duty on salt manufactured in the western district. I regret it, sir, because it throws another obstacle in the way of its adoption. It would be better to be left as we find it, subject to legislative discretion. But gentlemen insist that the duty of one shilling a bushed on salt, and a certain rate of toll, on the canal, shall be fixed by the constitution, because the state has pledged them as a fund for securing the repayment of money borrowed for the purpose of opening and constructing the canals. Then why not adopt the amendment offered by the gentleman from Cortland, (Mr. Nelson,) and take in all the items thus pledged, so as in some small degree, to equalize the burthen. His amendment embraces other duties pledged by the state, with equal solemnity, and for the same objects. According to his amendment, the duties arising from sales at auction, as well as the commutation for the tax on steam boat passengers, have been pledged by law, and ought, therefore, to be secured by constitutional provision, as much as the duty on salt, or tolls on the canal, otherwise you are

certain to create a jealousy between different sections of the state-this it would be well to avoid. The young lion which, it has been said, is now so easily bound, may soon increase in strength sufficient to burst his chains, and be relieved from the unequal operation of duties, by voting a direct tax. The western citizens are willing to be taxed, and to bear a liberal share of the expense incurred by constructing the canal. But they are unwilling to be liable to bear the whole burthen by an unalterable constitutional decree, which has an exclusive operation on them, unless the same rule is adopted which has a like application else where. The western district is not the only part of the state which is to derive benefit from this great work. It will, when finished, be more extensively beneficial to the city of New-York, than any other part of the state. Gentlemen from that quarter ought not to sculk from a proposition to fix in the constitution the duties on sales at auction, and the steam boat commutation, because they have a more immediate effect on them, unless they will consent to exclude the whole from the constitution. But it is contended, that it is less proper to insert these duties in the constitution, because they are laid on private property. The canals and the salt works at Salina are public property, it is true-but are not the works at Montezuma private property? And are you not endeavouring to fix the same duty of one shilling a bushel on all salt manufactured at those works? However it seems to be immaterial whether it be public or private property, on which the duty is laid, so long as its operation is confined to that part of the state. But I hope gentlemen will, at feast, be liberal enough to put all the funds provided by law for these objects, on an equal basis. If they must be fixed in the constitution, let them all go together, more especially as those that have their effect here, and to the south, are so trifling, compared with those that have their operation to the west. It has been said that in the western district, we are furnished with salt cheaper than before the duties were laid. I believe this is true. But is it in consequence of the imposition of a duty on that article? I think we shall hardly be persuaded into such a belief. No, sir, the price of every thing has fallenand salt is very high compared with other articles, and it cannot be purchased with any thing but money. It is true, that it is often sold at a sacrifice, in order to obtain cash to pay the duties. These sales are forced, and it is becoming so difficult to raise money sufficient to satisfy the duties, that the manufacture of salt is diminishing to a very great extent. I am well persuaded, that if the duty was half the amount that is now imposed, the revenue to the state would be full equal to the present amount. When laws were passed pledging those duties, and money was borrowed under those pledges, the creditors of the state had no right to expect that the constitution would be altered at all, and since its being amended does not destroy the validity of contracts or laws passed under the present constitution, they have no claim to alter their indemnity. But, sir, if we are to recognize any part of these contracts, let it be for the whole, by adopting the amendment offered by the gentleman from Cortland, (Mr. Nelson.)

MR. KING moved for a division of the amendment, and the question on the first part thereof being taken thereon by ayes and noes, was decided in the affirmative, as follows:

AYES-Messrs. Bacon, Barlow, Beckwith, Briggs, Brinkerhoff, Brooks, Buel, Burroughs, Carpenter, Carver, Case, Child, D. Clark, Clyde, Collins, Cramer, Day, Dodge, Duer, Eastwood, Edwards, Fairlie, Fenton, Ferris, Fish, Frost, Hallock, Hogeboom, Howe, Humphrey, Hunt, Hunter, Hurd, Knowles, Lansing, Lefferts, A. Livingston, P. R. Livingston, M‘Call, Millikin, Moore, Nelson, Park, Pike, President, Price, Pumpelly, Radcliff, Reeve, Rhinelander, Richards, Rockwell, Rogers, Root, Rose, Rosebrugh, Ross, Russell, Sage, N. Sanford, R. Sandford, Seely, Sharpe, I. Smith, R. Smith, Starkweather, Steele, I. Sutherland, Swift, Sylvester, Tallmadge, Taylor, Townley, Townsend, Tripp, Van Fleet, Van Horne, J. R. Van Rensselaer, Van Vechten, Verbryck, Ward, A. Webster, E. Webster, Wheaton, N. Williams, Woodward, Wooster, Yates, Young-88.

NOES-Messrs. Baker, Breese, R. Clarke, Dubois, Dyckman, Huntington, Jay, Jones, Kent, King, Munro, Paulding, Pitcher, Sanders, Seaman, Sheldon, S. Van Rensselaer, Wendover, Wheeler, Woods-20.

GEN. ROOT wished to know whether it was intended to include Grand Island, in the Niagara River, which was a part of the consideration for a commutation of the original tax imposed upon steam-boat passengers.

The Chairman then read the act containing the pledge alluded to, and, after some further discussion of the subject, the question was taken on the residne of the amendment relating to the steam-boat commutation, and carried.

MR. BACON moved to amend by inserting in the sixth line, after the words "not less," the words "on an average."

COL. YOUNG supported the motion upon the ground that it might hereafter be found necessary to increase the toll on some articles, and diminish it on

others.

GEN. ROOT opposed the motion. The state might be a loser by having the toll lessened on staple commodities, and augmented on posts and rails. MR. BROOKS moved to insert after the word "paid," in the twenty-fifth line, the following words: " the avails of Grand Island." Lost.

MR. NELSON moved to insert the following amendment:

"And the amount of the revenue established by the act of the legislature, of March 30, 1820, in lieu of the tax upon steam boat passengers."

MR. KING moved the following further proviso:

"It is further provided, that the salt springs shall not be sold or disposed of to any individual, or body politic or corporate whatever; but the same shall be and remain the property of this state." Carried.

COL. YOUNG moved to insert after the words "salt springs," in the proviso, of the gentleman from Queens, the words "with as much of the lands contigu ous thereto as is necessary for the manufacture of salt." Carried.

MR. WHEELER moved to amend by adding a clause, the purport of which was, that after the reimbursement of the expenses and interest thereon of the grand canal, that the said fund should be inviolably appropriated to the school fund. Lost.

MR. WARD then moved an amendment similar to that of the gentleman from Washington, (Mr. Wheeler,) except that a moiety only of the residuum was to be so appropriated.

GEN. ROOT would suggest to the gentleman from Westchester (Mr. Ward) the propriety of disposing of the other moiety of the residuary fund. He did not like to throw the apple of discord among our descendants, and he feared that posterity would be prodigiously puzzled how to dispose of it.

MR. MCALL moved to append a proviso, that "the duties on salt should never exceed 12 1-2 cts. per bushel;" no greater sum having been pledged. Lost.

MR. BRINKERHOFF moved to amend the proviso of the gentleman from Queens, by inserting after the word "salt," the following words: "nor any of the said canals, nor any section thereof." Carried.

MR. VAN VECHTEN moved to reconsider the vote on the subject of auction duties.

MESSRS. SHARPE and WHEELER opposed, and it was lost.

The question on the whole section, except those parts which relate to the school fund and salt springs, was then before the committee.

MESSRS. KING and FAIRLIE expressed their sentiments in the affirmative; and Messrs. Tompkins and Briggs against it.

Mr. N. WILLIAMS observed, that he rose with reluctance to give his reasons for voting, as he felt bound to do, against the whole section under consideration, though he might not, from necessary absence for a few days during the debate, fully understand the subject.

The whole proposition was founded in a principle which he could never agree to; and indeed, if adopted, it would reflect disgrace, not only upon the members of this Convention, but upon their children and their posterity in all future time. They are to be, in all probability, the future legislators of the state, and

will not fail to find the names of their fathers recorded as the authors of an act, by which we announce to all future generations, that their representatives are not safely to be trusted. What are we telling the people? Nothing short of this: that we, the delegates to a Convention, which they have created for the purpose of making amendments to the constitution, comprehend all the virtue, foresight, and wisdom that is, and is to be, for ever hereafter. And unless we perpetuate in the constitution, this tax or duty on salt, which is already secured by an existing law of the state, we have so little confidence in those who are to come after us, and who will be empowered by the people to legislate in all other cases, that we apprehend they will violate a solemn pledge, as it is called, to the public creditor. That is, we suspect that the people and their legislature will hereafter violate all good policy and common honesty. He said, he could never consent to make a constitution upon such principles. That this was a pledge might be admitted; and if so, he had no doubt that it would faithfully be redeemed. Had any alarm been uttered by any public creditor? He trusted not.

But, he said, his principal objections to this amendment were, that the Convention were going too much into legislative detail, and that of the most odious kind; for it was founded in distrust.

By so much legislation, the constitution would spread before the people a large surface for objections. So many points would be presented, that the whole would be endangered. One section of country would oppose one part while another section would be equally hostile to another part, and thus all would be lost. The people did not send us here to legislate. They could not have expected that we would do more than to settle general principles of government. They expected that we would leave the business of legislation to other hands.

He had said, he observed, that what they were doing was founded in distrust. And he was sorry to see that it could not be concealed, that there was a want of confidence in the western people of this state. Would the Convention present to that people a constitution founded in a suspicion of their integrity? He did not know what had occurred to excite this suspicion, or any feeling of jealousy against the people of that section of the country. It would be allowed on all hands, that he ought to know something of their history, their character, and their feelings; and he would boldly say, that there was nothing in either that should excite any alarm. Whatever was founded in a system of distrust could not prevail. It was calculated to set brother against brother; for we were all brethren of one great family. He hoped gentlemen would pause and reflect before they would sanction such a proceeding; by which they were raising up a structure that would carry within its bosom the materials of its own destruction. Let us not record, in the most solemn act we shall ever perform, that we have no confidence in a great and respectable body of our fellow citizens.

But he could not, he said, go fully into the argument, as he had, unfortunately, not heard what was urged in favour of the measure. He thought it, however, his duty to offer some of the grounds which would compel him to vote against it.

MR. BACON said, that having, in the course of debate yesterday, and by his vote on an amendment which had been proposed, involved himself in the disgrace which had just been attached, by his colleague, to all those who might see fit to sanction the principle of the section under consideration, and being, by the vote which he should give, about to plunge himself still deeper in that disgrace, he felt himself called upon, by the remarks of the gentleman, to of fer something further in justification of the course which he should pursue. He needed not, as he hoped, the solemn admonition which he had heard, that bis vote was to be placed on the records of his country, for the future inspec tion both of the constituents whom he represented, and of his posterity. He trusted that all his votes were given, not only under a sense of those considerations, but also under that which related to his own consciousness of truth and justice.