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by the same rule. It was therefore fit that the house of representatives in congress should have the exclusive right of originating revenue bills.

COL. YOUNG replied, when the question was taken on the section, and carried without amendment.

The fifth section was then read.

COL. YOUNG moved that it be postponed, as he wished to offer an amendment making the pay of members two dollars per day.

MR. E. WILLIAMS hoped the section would not be postponed-the gentleman from Saratoga could write two dollars in a moment.

MR. KING said that no sum, could with propriety, be fixed in the constitu tion; the sum proper to be paid would depend upon the state of the times. Two dollars at one time, would be a better compensation than four at another. It was best to leave that subject with the legislature, under the restriction that no legislature should regulate its own pay. Public opinion would then always regulate the sum, and it would be such as would be reasonable.

MR. HALLOCK called for the consideration of a substitute for this section, which he had offered some time since, and which had been committed to the committee of the whole when on this subject-the object of which, was to provide that the pay should not, for the present, exceed a certain sum, which could not be altered until after a certain number of years, the sum and number of years left in blank. The sum of two dollars, two and a half, and three dollars, were mentioned, as sums with which it would be proposed to fill the first blank; and five years was also mentioned as a proper period with which to fill the second blank.

MR. SHARPE was in favour of the section as reported by the select committec. He hoped they would not, in making a constitution, attempt to run a race of popularity. With the restriction provided by the report itself, the legislature might safely be entrusted with the regulation of their compensation. He had, he said, seen two dollar men, three dollar men, and from that up to five and six dollars. The courting of popularity in this way, he had always considered as disreputable, and generally, he believed, it had proved unavailing. He had known one remarkable instance of this kind: two members from the county of Saratoga, two years ago, had been the strenuous advocates for lessening the pay of the members of the legislature, in which, however, they had failed. They received their pay from the public treasury, but on arriving home had deposited in the county treasury of their county, about one hundred dollars each, being what they supposed the excess, or what was more than a reasonable compensation both the gentlemen were candidates for a re-election, but the electors of Saratoga thought proper to leave them at home, notwithstanding the deposit of their hundred dollars each for the benefit of the county.

MR. DUER hoped the gentleman from New-York would not impute to himself and his honourable colleague, a desire of securing popularity; if he did, such imputation would be unjust and unfounded. He thought they had sufficiently shown that they were not actuated by such motives, and he hoped the proposition of his honourable colleague would be adopted. The great evil, of which the people had complained, was, that the members had been allowed to fix their own pay; and that motives of self-interest had prevailed over their popularity, insomuch that they had generally fixed their wages higher than the people thought proper; and notwithstanding, each successive legislature has pursued the very course which public opinion has condemned and reprobated.

What is to be the remedy? To take it out of the power of the legislature to be led by their own private interest, to pursue a course different from the wishes of the people. It was supposed by some, that the report of the select committee contained a provision which would answer every purpose; for his own part, he could not concur in that opinion. The members of the legislature would generally expect a re-election; and although they would not have the power of fixing it for their present compensation, they would fix it in expectation of receiving the benefit in future. He was satisfied it would not be wise to fix the price for a long term, but there could be no danger in fixing it for five years, and for these reasons he thought the substitute ought to be adopted.

COL. YOUNG said he would be opposed to regulating the pay of the members of the legislature for any long term of years. Let one year intervene between

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the legislature making the provision for the pay, and that to which such provision should apply. He thought it necessary that some regulation should be made in the constitution, for the compensation to be received for the two first years. This would be necessary, to quiet the public discontent which had grown out of the large compensation which the legislature had heretofore voted for themselves. It was customary for the supervisors of counties to receive two dollars per day for their services; he did not know why that ought not to be considered as a criterion by which to regulate the pay of members of the legislature. It was true that the latter were put to more expense and had to pay more for their board, than the former, but the length of time for which they were employed, would be an equivalent for that difference; perhaps it might be well enough to fix the sum at two dollars and fifty cents per day.

The honourable gentleman from New-York (Mr. Sharpe) had alluded to a circumstance which had occurred two years ago in Saratoga county. He had attributed the loss of the election of two gentlemen in that county, to the circumstance of their having paid into the treasury of their county, a part of the compensation they had received as members of the legislature. Mr. Y. did not think this a fair conculusion. He thought it would have been more charitable I have, for the gentleman to have attributed their defeat to some other cause. sir, continued Mr. Y. known candidates to lose their election, who had not parted with any portion of the pay they had received in the legislature.

GEN. ROOT said, when the proposition of the gentleman from Orange, should be negatived, (which he believed would be soon) he should offer an amendment, that no legislature should increase their pay during the year for which they were elected. It might not be improper for the next legislature, to instruct the attorney general to collect the money that was received unlawfully at the last

session.

A gentleman at Catskill, had three or four years ago, offered to serve the state as a legislator, for six shillings per day; or, if they would board him, for four shillings per day; but they must make an advance sufficient to enable him to purchase a suit of clothes. The gentleman from Orange has it. He denies that he votes for the sake of popularity. I will admit that I vote for popularity. I vote to please the great mass of the people in the state, including my constituents, the yeomanry, and mechanics; (and I might say some merchants too) but more particularly, agriculturists, and when I vote to please all these classes, I vote to please myself also. Members that are calculating on a re-election, will generally be cautious how they vote for higher wages, on account of their popularity; and those who do not expect a re-election, will not feel so much magnanimity, as to vote for paying others more than they receive themselves.

MR. J. SUTHERLAND said that much discontent had certainly existed respecting the compensation which the members of the legislature had hitherto received. He believed that it would not be amiss to fix the pay for a few years. The fluctuation in that period could not be so great as to make any serious difference; the compensation had been unreasonably high. No more should be given, than a sum which would compensate men in the common walks of life for their time, and he supposed two and a half dollars per day, as the times now were, would be sufficient.

MR. R. CLARKE was opposed to fixing any sum by the constitution, and he was so, he believed, from a just regard to the public interest. He would not, he said, have the pay so large as to be an object of cupidity, or so low as to prevent men in the middling paths of life from attending without great sacrifice of private interest. Fixing the compensation at a very low sum, would operate to fill the legislative assemblies with two opposite classes of men-nabobs and those having no honest employment to keep them at home. It would drive from the legislature all the honest yeomanry of the country, who could not afford to bestow their time without a reasonable compensation.

GEN. TALLMADGE proposed to fix the pay of members for a certain period, before the expiration of which it should not be altered. He thought two years would be a proper term for an experiment, during which no great changes in the relative prices of labour and money could take place.

MR. NELSON moved an amendment limiting the pay regulation of the members to two years, and until after the meeting of the next succeeding legislature.

GEN. ROOT called up the resolution which he had offered at an early part of the session, and which had been permitted to lie on the table. He replied at considerable length to the gentlemen who had preceded him in the debate.

MR. DUER regretted that the prejudices of an early education prevented his replying to the language of a gentleman in a public assembly, which he should be ashamed to use in a private circle. The epithet of "sober-minded," which he had unfortunately used a few days ago, had given great offence to the gentleman from Delaware, and had drawn down his indignation upon him. The gentleman tells us (but the avowal was unnecessary) that he is directed by popularity in voting-that his conduct in this house is controlled by a desire to secure popularity. I deny that to be the case with me. I will endeavour to be directed by what I conceive to be for the interests of my constituents, without regard to their prejudices; although by such a course I may deprive myself of that popularity which is the idol of the gentleman from Delaware. I flatter myself I shall preserve their permanent esteem, which to me is much more desirable. The gentleman has requested us to take a course, which, I think, were we to pursue it, would be an honest one-nay, more so than to endeavour to destroy the popularity of those who have voted on similar grounds, and then pocket $1,500 himself. Should we take this course, it will be full as honest and as disinterested as to exclaim against those who have fixed a rate of compensation, and then without scruple receive pay to the full amount, after being absent during half the session.

I trust the proposition which has been submitted by my honourable colleague will not be so speedily rejected as the gentleman from Delaware may imagine; although I have no doubt he wishes it to be the case, as it may interfere with a favourite proposition of his own, and he is always anxious to appear to the people as being the author of all popular propositions.

Mr. D. said he was very thankful to the gentleman from Saratoga for the support which he had given. He was in favour of filling the blank with the smallest sum mentioned, or a sum barely sufficient to pay the expenses; and by adopting such a course the character of members would be improved. The place would not be sought after for the emolument which it would afford.

GEN. ROOT explained at length in relation to the subject referred to by Mr. Duer.

MR. DUER expressed his entire satisfaction with the explanation that had been given, and hoped hereafter that the gentleman from Delaware would be inclined to extend the same charity to others that he claimed for himself.

The amendment offered by the gentleman from Rensselaer, (Mr. Hogeboom} and referred to the committee of the whole when on this subject, was read by the chairman.

MR. CRAMER hoped the compensation of members would be fixed by the constitution.

MR. DODGE wished that a maximum might be etablished, and offered an amendment to that effect.

MR. BRIGGS hoped we should not disfigure the constitution by fixing on the face of it dollars, shillings, cents, farthings, and mills. It was descending from great and fundamental principles.

MR. RUSSELL was opposed to the amendment. It was going too much into detail, and had better be left to the legislature.

MR. SHARPE announced his intention to vote against the amendment.

MR. BACON said, that he was, upon the whole, in favour of fixing in the constitution the pay of members of the legislature, at a sum which should be unalterable for a short period. It was true, that there might be some little inequality in different years in the real value of the sum which was fixed, owing to a variation in the price of commodities for that period; but, as but a short period was proposed, it could produce no material inconvenience or injustice, and would be more than counterbalanced by the benefits which would grow out of it. And those were that it would put at rest, for a while at least, that ball of

popularity which was ever bandying about between the rival parties of the state, on the subject of salaries and compensations. The controversy generally was, who should play this ball the most successfully. The gentleman from New-York, could probably have no adequate idea of the degrading and afflictive scenes to which it often led in the country; that it was made the hobbyhorse of ambitious demagogues, and peddling politicians, and in the contest about it, the great questions which affected the vital interests of the state were too often absorbed or overlooked. It was mortifying and degrading, to witness how a little question of this character was too often managed; one party gave out their notice for a county meeting, to nominate their members of assembly, and by the way of securing their popularity, took care to put in something about the wages of members; the other party equally cunning, and about equally sincere, when they came to give their notice, were sure to bait their trap with the same catching topic. The members nominated by each, must always be understood to be pledged to lower the wages, and this was most generally the last of it, until another year, when the same game was played over again. He wished to see this small political trading broken up, even at the expense of preventing the legislature for a short period, from reducing the compensations, at least, of their immediate successors; for even this had been within our own short recollection, improved as a net with which to catch a little popularity, and to all appearances, succeeded admirably. We had all seen the indecent and barefaced spectacle, of a legislature taking four dollars a day to themselves, at the same time reducing their immediate successors to three, and then returning home with the boast, that they had proved themselves the friends of the people and of low wages, and as it would seem, gaining to themselves an increased fund of popularity, by that very act. They answered, in general, when enquired of by their constituents that they had reduced the wages, as the journals had not yet arrived to show how the fact was. Indeed, on these sort of questions, the journals generally tell no individual tales, for upon searching them, it will be found, that no one often cares to call for the ayes and noes. Those who choose to vote for a little additional compensation are very welcome to do it, and the rest are sure to make no noise about it. In order to prevent in some measure, the successful practice of acts like these, he was for fixing the compensation by the constitution, for a short period-alterable only periodically, as contemplated by the amendment proposed.

MR. KING again urged several considerations in favour of leaving the subject to the legislature. If the pay of the members was fixed for two, three, four, or five years, what then? Should we call another Convention to amend the constitution? We must after all leave it to the legislature.

The question of Mr. Duer's amendment was then taken by ayes and noes, and decided in the negative, as follows:

NOES-Messrs. Beckwith, Birdseye, Bowman, Breese, Briggs, Brinkerboff, Brooks, Burroughs, Carver, D. Clark, R. Clarke, Dodge, Dubois, Eastwood, Fairlie, Fenton, Fish, Frost, Humphrey, Hunt, Hunter, Huntington, Jay, Jones, Kent, King, Lansing, Lefferts, A. Livingston, M'Call, Millikin, Munro, Nelson, Park, Paulding, President, Price, Radcliff, Rhinelander, Root, Rose, Rosebrugh, Russell, Sage, R. Sandford, Sharpe, I. Smith, Starkweather, Swift, Sylvester, Ten Eyck, Tripp, Van Fleet, S. Van Rensselaer, Van Vechten, Ward, A. Webster, E. Webster, Wendover, Wheaton, E. Williams, Woods-63.

AYES-Messrs. Bacon, Baker, Barlow, Carpenter, Case, Child, Clyde, Collins, Cramer, Day, Duer, Dyckman, Ferris, Hallock, Howe, P. R. Livingston, Moore, Pumpelly, Reeve, Richards, Rockwell, Sanders, N. Sanford, Seaman, Seely, Sheldon, R. Smith, Steele, I. Sutherland, Tallmadge, Taylor, Townley, Townend, Van Horne, J. R. Van Rensselaer, Verbryck, Woodward, Wooster-39.

The question next was on the amendment offered by Mr. Nelson.

GEN. TALLMADGE proposed a slight alteration in the amendment, to which Mr. Nelson assented.

GEN. ROOT was opposed to the proposition, on the ground that the legislative years was not defined, and difficulty might arise in ascertaining the limitation of the provision.

The question on Mr. Nelson's amendment was then taken by ayes and noes, and decided in the negative, as follows:

NOES-Messrs. Birdseye, Bowman, Breese, Brinkerhoff, Brooks, Buel, Burroughs, R. Clarke, Day, Dodge, Fairlie, Fenton, Ferris, Fish, Frost, Hunt, Hunting, Jay, Kent, King, Lefferts, M'Call, Millikin, Park, Paulding, President, Price, Radcliff, Reeve, Rhinelander, Root, Rose, Rosebrugh, Russell, Sage, R. Sandford, Seely, I. Smith, Swift, Ten Eyck, Tripp, Van Fleet, Van Horne, S. Van Rensselaer, Van Vechten, A. Webster, E. Webster, Wendover, Wheaton, E. Williams, Wooster.-51.

AYES-Messrs. Bacon, Baker, Barlow, Beckwith, Briggs, Carpenter, Carver, Case, Child, D. Clark, Clyde, Collins, Cramer, Dubois, Dyckman, Eastwood, Hallock, Hees, Howe, Hunter, Huntington, Jones, Lansing, A. Livingston, P. R. Livingston, Moore, Munro, Nelson, Pumpelly, Richards, Rockwell, Sanders, N. Sanford, Seaman, Sharpe, Starkweather, I. Sutherland, Sylvester, Tallmadge, Taylor, Townley, Townsend, J. R. Van Rensselaer, Verbryck, Woods, Woodward, Young-47.

The question on the amendment offered by MR. DODGE was then taken, and decided in the negative.

After a few remarks from Messrs. Root, King, and Burroughs, the 5th section was passed.

The 6th section was then read.

MR. BIRDSEYE then moved the following amendment:

"No member of the legislature shall receive any civil appointment from the governor and senate, or from the legislature during the term for which he shall have been elected."

MR. KING assented to the substitute of Mr. Birdseye.

MR. E. WILLIAMS considered this a very salutary provision, and he hoped it would be adopted. It did not apply to the great mass of officers, as had been stated by the gentleman from Delaware; from the first office in the gift of the state down to a path master. It referred to those only who were to be appointed by the governor and senate. These were few in number, and the offices were desirable both for the honours which they confer, and the emoluments which are attached to them. The judiciary officers, the attorney general, the comptroller, the secretary of state, canal commissioners, &c. are the great, honourable and valuable offices, to which, we may well suppose, the members of the legislature, without degrading their dignity, might aspire. Experience has sufficiently shown that they have done so; and on an examination of the subject, it will be found, that nineteen out of twenty of these offices have been filled out of the legislature from year to year. It has been continued till the people have expressed their disapprobation, from one part of the state to the other; and although they have selected in many instances fit and suitable candidates for office, yet inasmuch as they were taken from the legislature, the body who superintend and manage the appointing power, they have been considered as improper selections. An idea is entertained that the legislature has been rendered subservient to the appointing power, for the promotion of politi cal views and the advancement of individuals in that body. This has been witnessed with horror! And is it wise, or is it prudent, to let members of the legislature be promoted to fill these important offices? It may be said, the case will be different now, from what it was when the appointing power was in the hands of the old council; but where is there an objection that would lie against the principle then, that will not apply with equal force now? Then you had only to contract with the governor and four individuals-now you have the governor and thirty-two senators. If appointments have been obtained by trading and bargaining-by conferring legislative benefits for political appointments-is it not probable that something of the kind will continue to be practised? There are, to be sure, thirty-two senators, a majority of whom would be seventeen, to be consulted; but let a man come, like the honourable gentleman from Delaware, with his powerful eloquence pouring like a mountain torrent upon that body, and who could withstand it? If, then, it be true, that

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