ed to by a gentleman from Saratoga, all stand on grounds of public safety, or high political inconvenience. The exclusion of the blacks from militia duty and from juries, is founded only on considerations of feeling and of taste in the whites, and adopted for the sole convenience of the latter, but it is not on any such principles, that we can justify withholding from them the first of our general political rights, where its exercise is forbid by no considerations of public safety, or political necessity.

MR. EASTWOOD said he was not in favour of letting in black vagabonds to vote, but felt more liberal than the select committee; he therefore moved to strike out $250 and insert $100.

The question was thereupon taken on Mr. Eastwood's motion and lost.

A division having been required upon the proviso reported, the question was taken thereon and carried in the affirmative as follows:

AYES-Messrs. Barlow, Beckwith, Bowman, Briggs, Brinkerhoff, Burroughs, Carpenter, Carver, Case, D. Clark, Collins, Dodge, Dubois, Dyckman, Edwards, Fairlie, Fenton, Ferris, Frost, Hallock, Howe, Humphrey, Hunt, Hunting, Hurd, Lansing, Lawrence, Lefferts, A Livingston, M'Call, Moore, Nelson, Park, Pike, Porter, President, Price, Pumpelly, Radcliff, Richards, Rosebrugh, Ross, Russel, Sage, R. Sanford, Schenck, Seaman, Seeley, Sharpe, Sheldon, I.Smith, R. Smith, Stagg, Starkweather, Steele, D. Southarland, Swift, Talmadge, Taylor, Townsend, Tripp, Tuttle, Van Buren, Van Fleet, Van Horne, Ward, E. Webster, Wendover, Wheeler, Woods, Woodward Young---72.

NOES-Messrs. Bacon, Birdseye, Brooks, Buel, Child, R. Clarke, Clyde, Day, Duer, Eastwood, Fish, Hees, Huntington, Jay, Jones, Kent, King, Munro, Paulding, Pitcher, Platt, Rhinelander, Root, N. Sanford, Spencer, Van Ness, J. R. Van Rensselaer, S. Van Rensselaer, Wheaton, E. Willians.-31. The committee then rose and reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again.

In Convention, on motion of Mr. Buel, ordered, that the report of the committee of the whole as amended, be printed for the use of the members of the Convention. Adjourned.

MONDAY, OCTOBER 8, 1821.

The President resumed the chair at 9 o'clock, and the journals of Saturday were read and approved.

THE ELECTIVE FRANCHISE.

The Convention then again resolved itself into a committee of the whole, on the report of the committee of thirteen, on the subject of the elective franchise Mr. N. Williams in the chair.

Sundry amendments were proposed, which were not acted on, when the question recurred on agreeing to the whole report.

JUDGE VAN NESS said, if the question was now to be taken on the whole of the report, he wished to submit some observations in opposition to it, but if it was to be postponed, he would reserve them until the question should finally be taken.

COL. YOUNG thought we ought to take the final question on the report, but it should be left open to amendment, in Convention.

On motion of the President, the committee rose and reported; and the report was ordered to lie on the table.

GEN. ROOT said, as the report was now open to amendment, he moved to strike out the third section, relating to a registry of votes.

Mr. R. remarked, that this section had passed in committee of the whole some days ago; but he hoped that they had since been convinced of their error, and satisfied themselves, that such a muster-roll of voters would be impracticable, and lead to mischievous consequences, by depriving many legal voters of

the right of suffrage, in consequence of not having their names properly insert ed on the muster list. In the militia, if the roll is not complete, it may be com pleted by a non-commissioned officer on the day of training; the overseers o highways may add to their roll, names that are not contained in their commission list; but no additional names can be added to the list of voters, unless twenty days before the election. It will be necessary, in order to carry this provision into effect, to have certain officers to take the proof of the qualifications of voters to be enrolled previously to the election. This proof is to be taken in private, by affidavit, at least twenty days before the election. In order that all may hear of this, it will be necessary to put up a notice in at least three public places-a bar-room, a blacksmith's shop, and a post at the angle of the roads. Thus men are to be compelled to make two journeys, one to appear before this dread tribunal, and once at the polls of the election-perhaps in some instances, ten, twelve, or twenty miles, to get one vote! It is said, there will be no difficulty in all this. Perhaps some gentlemen will be so much interested, as to turn out and bring them to the polls of the election. But will they be willing to turn out twice-once to get their names entered on this great conscription list, and again to appear at the polls? No; they will not come. It will lead to this result-that a few individuals in the villages and cities, who have a desire that a few shall rule the many, who have a desire that aristocracy should triumph, will be on the alert: but honest republicans will never take such pains-modest, unassuming democracy will never be shackled by your conscription lists. We are told that this is to be our economical plan-that one day instead of three will be sufficient to receive all the votes of a town. I want to know whether the object of having our elections three days, was to accommodate the inspectors or the electors? I am of the opinion, that the object was to accommodate electors, who might otherwise have to come ten or twenty miles; and by having an election three days, it may be brought into their neighbourhood. The additional expense of having to appear before this board of control, will more than equal the expense of the inspectors for the two days' service at the time of election; and to fill up this list previously to the election, will require more than one day, the expense of which will be more than to balance the expense of a three days' election. I think, therefore, we have reason to hope this section will be rejected.

COL. YOUNG opposed the motion. He reviewed and enforced the arguments that had been previously offered on the subject to the committee, and thought there could be no danger or impropriety in giving to the legislature the power of exercising a discretion to prescribe in the mode that the report had suggested. The inconvenience of registering was very inconsiderable. The tax lists, the highway assessments, and the muster rolls of the militia, would furnish the inspectors with indubitable documentary evidence of the admissibility of almost all the voters who were entitled to the privilege.

MR. VAN VECHTEN was for retaining this section. One great object in the adoption of such a provision was, to make oaths less frequent ;-and now are we to return to the same old system which we have so lately expressed a desire to abandon? He hoped not. Admitting this system should be attended with some little inconvenience, the object for which it is adopted is sufficient to induce us to put up with it. But he did not believe it would be the case. It had been very properly remarked by the gentleman from Saratoga, that these names would not have to be enrolled every year. It would be necessary to add annually the names of such as became voters within the year; and, with proper attention to this system, much of the iniquity heretofore practised would be avoided. Great fears are expressed, that by some means men will not all be able to get their names enrolled, and thereby lose the privilege of voting, through the neglect of some military or town officers in making their returns. As this is to be regulated by the legislature, we need not trouble ourselves with it. As we have been frequently told, we can safely trust the legislature.

Mr. Van Vechten was sorry to hear the words aristocracy and democracy so frequently used in the Convention. They had convened, not to talk of political appellations, but to form a constitution, to which subject he was anxious that their attention should be more particularly directed. With respect to the sub

ject before the committee, it was not to be presumed that the legislature wouldnever err; but they were to presume that it would do its duty. Still, as there was a possibility of its being led astray, it was necessary to provide some constitutional guards. We are now endeavouring to secure the right of suffrage by a constitutional provision; but something must be left to the discretion of the legislature in carrying this provision into execution. It is said that many votes will be lost in this way, through ignorance of the manner of proceeding to obtain the necessary qualifications to appear at the polls. This cannot long be the case, as all will soon know the course and their duty. By this constitutional provision we are securing the right of suffrage, with a pledge to our government that none shall enjoy it who are not really entitled to it. It is pretended that these qualifications are to be tested in secret. It is to be regulated by the legislature; and when they have determined the manner in which it is to be conducted, it will be no longer a secret. Now what is to be the situation of our elections without this provision, with all the new qualifications that have been added? Will it not be extremely difficult at the polls, when all is in confusion and hurry, to ascertain who is qualified and who not? Could this not be determined with more propriety at some other time and place? My judgment tells me it could. I think it is the best feature in the report, and we have the experience of other states to confirm my belief; and, to relieve the gentleman from his fears, that the system cannot be understood, I will inform him, that we have many gentlemen among us who will be willing to teach those who cannot understand it themselves. A gentleman has remarked, that in this way we were about to establish an aristocracy. I hope we shall not do it by extending the right of suffrage. This sound of aristocracy must by this time, I think, have lost its force. No man can apprehend any danger from the adoption of this proposi tion. It is the provision originally reported by the committee; and that gentleman will not, I presume, accuse this committee of aristocratic notions. This cry of aristocracy has been too frequently addressed to this Convention.

GEN, ROOT was aware, that he had occasion to use terms sometimes, that were rather disagreeable to certain gentlemen. The term democracy appeared to frighten some gentlemen almost as much as the ghost of the old Council of Appointment. He did not know but the honourable gentleman from Albany, might have his ears wounded sometimes with that epithet. It had been stated, that it was agreed on all hands to get rid of the cause which led to so much perjury by the provisions of this report, it is required that young men shall be twenty-one years of age before they are entitled to vote. How is this fact to be ascertained? By oath, if a challenge should be made. And how is a residence in the state to be ascertained? This is a fact perhaps known only to the elector: and again, as to residence in the town, which must be at least six months in all cases, and twelve months in some. This must be ascertained by the oath of somebody and would it not be better to have it ascertained by the person himself, who must be acquainted with the fact, than by some one who knows nothing about it? The legislature has provided a law, that challenges may be made at elections-members of the legislature have to swear to support the constitution of the United States. Oaths must then be provided-electors must go before this board, whether it be a triumvirate, or a decemvirate: and if so, where is the greatest safety, before the public, or to be pulled by the button or sleeve into a closet? In my judgment, it would be full as safe in public. It is said, the legislature will perhaps never carry it into effect; and I am sure it is the last one that they ever should-it is possibly so absurd that they will not see fit to carry it into execution. We are asked by the gentleman from Albany, whether we are afraid to trust the legislature? I am not afraid to trust to legislation at any time, if there is patriotism there; but I have known the time when there was neither honesty nor patriotism in our legislature.

We are told by the honourable gentleman from Saratoga, (Mr. Young,) that there will be no inconvenience in the application of this plan; if men once appear and get their names on this inscription list, it is sufficient for all their lives. I was sure the gentleman did not understand the plan which he advocated. I think it reads, "that he shall have paid a tax, or done military duty

within one year preceding the election." How, then, is his being once inscribed on this muster-roll to qualify him for life? It is not a fact.

We have been informed, that the necessary information can be obtained from the collector's warrant; that warrant is not necessarily returned till February; nor does the collector incur a penalty, if it is not returned till twenty days after the time assigned. How can this board of control obtain this list, till after the election has gone by? Suppose the legislature should fix the election at the last Tuesday in October, or first Tuesday in November; and the supervisors be by law required to make their tax list by the first Tuesday in October: a legal and equitable voter, in every other respect, is to be precluded from a vote because he, by accident or misfortune, was unable to get his name inscribed upon this list by the great board of control. The same of the road list: it cannot be obtained in season, unless the board of control should make a journey to the different overseers in the town; which would not be very convenient or economical in some towns, there being in the town where I live about fifty road districts; and the work is never all done till after our election will take place, and the lists are generally not more than half returned.

There would be similar evils in depending on military returns.

The law is to provide, that this list shall be made out twenty days previously to the election; and thus exclude all that come of age within these twenty days. You are to lop off twenty days of their political existence: you give with one hand, and take away with the other: you grant privileges by one section, and take them away by another. If all the towns in the state were Jike Ballston, one day's election might answer; but in the county where I reside, there are towns in which there is a string of inhabitants extending forty iniles in length, upon the borders of a stream that breaks those vast mountains into chasms. Must these men all attend in one day, some more than thirty miles from the place of election? In the town where I reside, and it is the metropolis of the county too, some of the electors have to come over a mountain twelve or fourteen miles to the election; and shall the polls of election be held to accommodate the inspectors, and let the poor electors travel this distance? With respect to the inscription list being filled twenty days before the clection, some men may not hear of the time exactly, and others may forget the day.

In banking business I believe it is not unfrequent that a man forgets the day his note becomes due; but in that case there is three days grace-in the case of a poor elector not a day of grace! The gentleman from Albany (Mr. V. V.) thinks the electioneerers will notify the electors; they may on one side, but they will not on the other. Gentlemen, possessing principles, the very name of which wounds their feelings, might take pains to notify them, but mild, meck, and unassuming democracy would not do it: for but few of that side could, perhaps, afford the expense as well as those who have enjoyed high salary offices, acquired wealth by a lucrative profession, or by speculation. The gentleman from Albany informed us, the other day, that the time would soon arrive, when there would not be two political parties, that the germ of strife was about to be cut up. I trust, the old names of aristocrat and republican will prevail, till the latter shall be bound at the footstool of the former.

We return again to the conscription list. Suppose a man should have his name entered, and then move out of the town or county, he could come back on the day of election, and vote if he pleased; this list being taken for law and gospel.

Mr. R. said, he had been referred to the practice in England and in Massachusetts: if the committee had taken any of the Boston notions to ingraft into the constitution, he was sorry for it; for he did not like Boston Particular or Boston notions. When the great Corsican felt a disposition to be made consul for life, he had a registry of all the voters in France: they had to write their votes against their names, that it might be afterwards designated for whom they voted. He begged the honourable gentleman from Albany would refer to that great imperial precedent; as he did not appear to be very familiar with the Massachusetts precedent. If the Convention are willing to take this im

perial precedent, I hope the name of aristocrat will not be so offensive, when democracy shall become more offensive.

MR. RUSSELL wished the motion to strike out might be restricted to the residue of the section after the fourth line, inclusive.

GEN. ROOT assented to the suggestion.

MR. VAN VECHTEN replied to Mr. Root.

MR. FAIRLIE was in favour of retaining the section.

The question on striking out, was then taken by ayes and noes, and decided in the affirmative, as follows:

AYES-Messrs. Barlow, Birdseye, Bowman, Briggs, Brinkerhoff, Brooks, Carpenter, Carver, Case, R. Clarke, Clyde, Cramer, Day, Dubois, Duer, Eastwood, Fenton, Ferris, Fish, Frost, Hallock, Howe, Humphrey, Hunt, Hurd, A. Livingston, P. R. Livingston, M'Call, Moore, Park, Pitcher, Price, Pumpelly, Radcliff, Richards, Root, Rosebrugh, Russell, Sage, R. Sanford, Schenck, Seaman, Seeley, Sharpe, Sheldon, Starkweather, Steele, Swift, Tallmadge, Taylor, Townley, Townsend, Tripp, Tuttle, Van Buren, Van Fleet, Van Horne, A. Webster, Wendover, Woodward-60.

NAYS-Messrs. Bacon, Baker, Beckwith, Breese,Buel, Burroughs, Child, D. Clark, Dyckman, Edwards, Fairlie, Hees, Hogeboom, Hunter, Huntington, Jay, Jones, Kent, King, Lansing, Lawrence, Lefferts, Munro, Nelson, Paulding, Platt, Porter, Reeve, Rhinelander, Rockwell, Rose, Ross, Sanders, N. Sandford, I. Smith, R. Smith, Spencer, Stagg, Van Ness, S. Van Rensselaer, Van Vechten, Ward, E. Webster, Wheaton, E. Williams, N. Williams, Yates, Young--43.

MR. VAN BUREN thought we should take the question on separate parts of the report. There had been twelve days occupied, and nothing settled yet. MR. BIRDSEYE moved to amend by striking out the words "subject to taxation or." Postponed.

MR. PLATT moved to expunge the proviso in the first section, which declares that no person, "other than a white man," shall vote, unless he have a freehold estate of the value of $250. He said, I am not disposed, sir, to turn knighterrant in favour of the men of colour. But the obligations of justice are eternal and indispensable: and this proviso involves a principle which, upon reflection, I cannot concede, or compromise as a matter of expediency. I am aware of the intrinsic difficulty of this subject. The evils of negro slavery are deep rooted, and admit of no sudden and effectual remedy. In the act of doing justice, we are bound to consider consequences. With such a population as that of Virginia, or the Carolinas, a sudden emancipation, and permission to the negroes to vote, would be incompatible with the public safety: and necessity creates a law for itself. But, sir, in this state there is no grounds for such a plea. I admit, that most of the free negroes in our state, are unfit to be entrusted with the right of suffrage; they have neither sufficient intelligence, nor a sufficient degree of independence, to exercise that right in a safe and proper manner. I would exclude the great mass of them, but not by this unjust and odious discrimination of colour. We are under no necessity of adopting such a principle, in laying the foundation of our government. Let us attain this object of exclusion, by fixing such a uniform standard of qualification, as would not only exclude the great body of free men of colour, but also a large portion of ignorant and depraved white men, who are as unfit to exercise the power of voting as the men of colour. By adopting the principle of universal suffrage, in regard to white men, we create the necessity, which is now pleaded as an excuse for this unjust discrimination. Our republican text is, that all men are born equal, in civil and political rights; and if this proviso be ingrafted into our constitution, the practical commentary will be, that a portion of our free citizens shall not enjoy equal rights with their fellow citizens. All freemen, of African parentage, are to be constitutionally degraded: no matter how virtuous or intelligent. Test the principle, sir, by another example. Suppose the proposition were, to make a discrimination, so as to exclude the descendants of German, or Low Dutch, or Irish ancestors; would not every man be shocked at the horrid injustice of the principle? It is in vain to disguise the fact: