conferred on the governor and senate the appointing power in regard to county officers. We all feel, and deplore, the evils which have resulted from the council of appointment as it now exists, and we have unanimously agreed to abolish it. He therefore thought the committee had erred in recommending that so large a portion of the appointing power should be given to the governor and senate. They are allowed to appoint all state officers, and to that alone he would confine their appointing power. You confer on the governor and senate an enormous power by giving to them the appointment of judges, sheriffs, and coroners, and indirectly, county clerks and district attorneys: which they cannot exercise discreetly for want of personal knowledge of the innumerable applicants for office. He thought if the provisions recommended in the report were adopted, we should gain little by abolishing the old council of appointment-we should make the matter worse instead of better. There were upwards of fifty counties in the state; and there would be more than two hundred judges, fifty or sixty sheriffs, three hundred coroners, twelve hundred commissioners for proving deeds, besides many others, appointed by the governor and senate. This immense patronage would endanger the purity of the senate, would minister to party violence, and would distract and degrade the state. It would be found worse, he thought, than the old council, inasmuch as the senate are more numerous than the council. He feared we deceived ourselves, if we supposed the appointing power would be exercised here as in the general government. There is in fact no similarity between the standing of the president of the United States, and the governor of this state, in relation to the senate. He feared, that instead of an independent nomination, dictated by his own judgment, and founded on his own responsibility, the appointing power would in practice degenerate into the mere result of previous consultations in the governor's closet, between him and his leading friends in the senate. He will seldom send a nomination until he is assured that it will be ratified. He may sometimes send a nomination with a previous understanding that it is to be rejected, so as to afford him a screen, and enable him with impunity afterwards to nominate a favourite whom he knows the senate will approve. My fear is, that the senate will generally dictate the nominations, especially if this general appointing power is to be extended to the county officers. My object is, to divide and distribute the power and patronage of conferring offices, so that no large portion of that power shall be deposited in any one body of men. Where the carcass is, there we know the foul birds of prey will gather round it. The union of so large an appointing power with the legislative and judicial functions of the senate, will tend to corrupt the highest fountain of justice and the purest source of legislation-It would entail upon the state the pestiferous influence which characterized the old council of appointment.

My proposition is, to carry home to cach county the power of appointing every county officer except the first judge, where the candidates, and those who appoint them, may and will be personally known to each other. Whether justices of the peace shall be elected in the towns, or shall be appointed by the council of appointment for the county, is a point on which I am not tenacious; it may, in my judgment, be safely done in either of those modes. Whether the justices be elected by the people or be appointed by this council, I propose they should be removable (for cause shown) by the court of common pleas, as recommended in the report of the select committee.

By choosing only three of the members yearly we shall give more stability and moderation to the council than if the whole body were liable to change at any one election.

My objection to conferring this appointing power on the board of supervisors s, first, that it would tend to convert that virtuous and respectable class of officers into a band of political agents. Hitherto their power has extended merely to the liquidation of accounts, and the apportioning of taxes; they have wielded no political power. But if they were to dispense the officers of the county, they would be elected with a sole view to that part of their duty; and we might expect to see the most violent instrument of party chosen in almost every town.

Secondly. I objeet to the board of supervisors as the appointing power in the

county; because the representation of the people would be very unequal. Some towns have 1000 voters, and some not more than 100: and it is not to be endured, that the small towns shall have an equal voice in all appointments with the large towns. It would certainly be unjust, and would not be satisfactory. If my proposition be accepted, the representation would be exactly equal. We should then choose three members of the council every year, when we choose our members of assembly. They would probably have occasion to meet but once or twice a year: and what, in my view, constitutes a high recommendation, they would have no other public duties to perform. With this general introduction, I offer the substitute which I have read. It will be seen that the county clerk, the district attorney, and the surrogate, are not named in my proposition. The reason is, because the report of the select committee proposes that the clerk and district attorney be appointed by the judges of the common pleas; and that the powers of the surrogate be given to the first judge. This, in my judgment, is proper. But if that part of the report shall not be agreed to, then I would propose to include those three important officers in the general class to be appointed by the council of appointment for the county.

MR. N. WILLIAMS said, however much he felt disposed to consult the wishes of his honourable colleague, he could not consent to withdraw his amendment, so long as this odious feature remained in the report.

MR. VAN BUREN hoped, after the explanation which he should give, the gentleman from Oneida (Mr. Platt,) would withdraw his motion for the present. He was not certain that the appointing power might not receive a better shape, than it now had in the report of the select committee.

MR. SHARPE was disposed to vote for the proposition of the gentleman from Oneida, but if judges and sheriffs were added, he should oppose it.

MR. BRIGGS said the honourable gentleman from Oneida had offered a substitute-admit it to be a substitute, sir. Now, if any gentleman likes the name of substitute better than that of amendment, he could see no difficulty in it. If any gentleman preferred the term amendment, let him vote for it-he could see no difficulty in it.

MR. YATES thought that if the proposition was considered as a substitute, an amendment to it would be in order; but an amendment to an amendment, would not be in order.

COL. YOUNG was apprehensive we should fall into the same embarrassments we had experienced a few days since.

JUDGE PLATT, to remove all difficulty, would consent to move to strike out and insert.

After a few remarks from MR. WENDOVER,

MR. DODGE proposed to pass over the 2d, 3d, 4th, and 5th sections, with the view that the proposition of the gentleman from Oneida might be printed. The amendment was complicated, and the subject too important to be passed over without deliberation. He therefore moved, that it be printed and laid on the table.

MR. VAN BUREN was opposed to passing over these sections.

MR. RUSSELL was in favour of the motion of the gentleman from Montgomery (Mr. Dodge)—he had himself to propose a substitute for the appointing pow

er.

MR. KING would submit to the consideration of the committee, whether it was not necessary to proceed according to the order of the business before the house; and to decide on what is to be conceded to the appointing power, before we decide who are to constitute that power. Take it the other way, and there is the same difficulty. He thought the Convention should endeavour to progress with the business before them as fast as possible.

MR. BIRDSEYE apprehended there would be some difficulty in accepting the proposition of the gentleman from Oneida (Mr. Platt,) as a substitute. It appeared to him that it would be better to take it piecemeal, in the form of amendments; that the part relating to the governor and senate should first be taken up-then that part relative to sheriffs---and the other parts in their order. In that way, the subject would be better understood.

JUDGE PLATT called for the reading of the first clause.

COL. YOUNG thought the course proposed by the gentleman from Ononda ga (Mr. Birdseye) was the only true course. Every gentleman who had heard the proposition of the gentleman from Oneida, must consider it a substitute, and if accepted, it would again render the business before the committee complicated. We were wasting time by receiving long substitutes-the report should be made the substratum, and the amendments to it, regularly built upon it.

MR. BUEL remarked, that if the substitute of the gentleman from Oneida were received, it would supersede a discussion of those parts of the report, which would be displaced by it.

MR. BRIGGS Conceived it was wholly immaterial, whether we call the proposition a substitute or an amendment.

JUDGE PLATT thought it would be better to have his proposition offered as a substitute, than as an amendment, since gentlemen would then be better able to view it in connexion; otherwise they would not be able to see the relation of the several parts.

MR. WHEELER moved to try the sense of the committee on the substitute. GEN. ROOT inquired in what situation the committee would be, if the substitute should be accepted.

JUDGE VAN NESS thought it would be better to decide in the first place, the great question, where the appointing power should be located.

COL. YOUNG agreed with the gentleman from Columbia, (Judge Van Ness,) and believed it would be better to take the sense of the house, on the leading question first.

JUDGE PLATT was in favour of the governor's nominating to the senate by message, and moved accordingly.

MR. KING made a few remarks in favour of the motion. Carried.

JUDGE PLATT moved to strike out the words "by and with the advice”—so as to make the provision read, "shall nominate and appoint with the consent of the senate." It is useless to retain these words, as the governor is to nominate by message, and will hold no personal consultation with the senate. Carried.

MR. RUSSELL then proposed the following as an amendment.

Strike out the whole of the second section, of the original report, on the appointing power, and insert the following:

I. There shall be a council of appointment for the state, consisting of the gov ernor and six councillors, who shall be constituted in the manner following, viz: II. That the state shall be divided into six equal council districts, according to the population thereof: and that as often as a governor is elected, the electors of the said districts respectively, shall choose one councillor, who, together with the governor, shall form the council of appointment for this state, for the term for which the governor shall be elected; and who shall appoint all officers, not otherwise directed by this constitution.

III. That the said council shall meet on the first Monday of December, in every year, at the seat of government.

IV. That the governor shall be ex officio president of the said council, and shall have an exclusive right to nominate all state officers, but shall have but a casting vote in the council.

V. That each councillor shall have the exclusive right to nominate all officers, whose powers are to be exercised within the district for which he shall have been elected: That the Secretary of the State, for the time being, shall be the Secreta. ry of the said Council, and record the doings of the same; and all the nomina tions and proceedings thereof shall be published.

VI. That the said councillors shall hold no other office under the United States, or state government, and that they shall receive, as a compensation for their ser vices, the same sum for wages and travelling, as is allowed by law to the members of the legislature. The governor may convene the council, whenever he may think the public good requires it except when the legislature are in session.

MR. DODGE renewed his motion to rise and report, in order to have the seve ral propositions printed.

MR. VAN BUREN hoped the committee would not rise, as there would be no business immediately before the Convention.

MR. DODGE thought the committee had better adjourn, and have the several amendments printed, than to pass any important provision hastily and unadvisedly.

CHIEF JUSTICE SPENCER said, the substitute of the gentleman from Erie was the ghost of the old council of appointment-it was the same hideous monster in a different shape. He had believed that the old council had become so odious that no one would attempt to retain any of its features. We had passed upon it unanimously-public sentiment was equally strong and decided against it, and he regretted to see any thing similar to it brought forward.

MR. RUSSELL remarked, that if his proposition was the ghost of the old council, it was very unlike it in its features. He went into an explanation of its principles, drew a comparison between his plan and the old council, and pointed out the decided advantages of the former.

COL. YOUNG said the proposition struck him more favourably than any thing he had heard on the subject. He confessed that his mind was nearly balanced, and he was in doubt how the appointing power could be disposed of. He wished the gentleman from Albany (Mr. Spencer) to assign some reasons why the appointing power should be given to the governor and senate.

THE CHIEF JUSTICE remarked, that if the gentleman from Saratoga (Col. Young) had yesterday been in his seat, he would have heard the subject fully discussed by gentlemen more competent than himself, and he thought a repetition of the arguments at this time unnecessary.

MR. KING was opposed to the practice into which we had fallen, of postponing every thing from day to day. We had already been together long enough, and the public would become weary of our tardy progress, and endless procras

tinations.

MR. RUSSELL again urged the consideration of his substitute. He could not concur with the gentleman from Queens, (Mr. King) in thinking that so much time had been uselessly spent by the Convention. In his opinion, the substitute offered by him should be printed. He apprehended the gentleman from Queens did not himself fully understand the subject.

MR. BURROUGHS drew a parallel between the substitute and the old council. There was little similarity between them. He hoped the substitute would be printed, and time given for discussion.

GEN. ROOT thought the whole subject was properly under consideration, and he should, therefore, make a few general remarks relative to the section. He was in favour of placing all judicial officers on the same footing, so far as it respected their creation. He thought there was more safety in electing the chancellor and judges of the supreme court by the people, than the justices of the peace. They were altogether less liable to improper influence from the power that created them.

The proposition of the gentleman from Erie, (Mr. Russell) had been scouted as preposterous. Some gentlemen were one day afraid of the people-another day they were haunted with ghosts and spectres. He ardently hoped that the day was not far distant, when the liberty of the people would indeed arise" redeemed, regenerated, and disenthralled by the genius of universal emancipation." And what, he asked, had destroyed the life of that council of appointment, whose perturbed spirit now wakened in some bosoms such anxious alarms? Why had it become unpopular in its advance to its grave? It was because its powers had been abused. In its theory it was good, nor had it become unpopular until a tyrannic dictation interfered with the free exercise of its legiti mate powers. But when it was driven by dictation, or seduced by the arts of blandishment, to subserve improper purposes, it became like the scathed oak-a disastrous shelter from the storm. Under the baneful influence of "an organized and disciplined corps," it is no wonder that it should have been abandoned by the wise and the good. Jaded to death by "extraneous influence" and worn down by fatigue, it was at last turned out upon the common, unpitied and forlorn, and left to die upon the barren waste.

But, sir, it has not been dictation and seduction alone that have caused this premature dissolution. In the course of its progress, salaries became exorbi tant; and it was not the "foul birds" only, but the towering eagles, that flew to the carcass. Its obesity was inviting, and the mighty ones of the land par took of the banquet. He hoped, therefore, that those who had fed upon its dainties would not be frightened by its ghost. Believing, as he did, that the proposition before the committee contained but few of its features, it would be entitled to his consideration, and perhaps to his support.

MR. EDWARDS observed, that it would probably be made manifest in the progress of the business of the Convention, both to this house and to the state, who were the persons that were most willing to confide in the people. I took occasion, on a former day, he observed, to express my opinion that the people were alike in their views and honest in their purpose, and that my republicanism was of a practical character. The crisis has now arrived in which professions and principles are to be tested by acts. To that test I advance with the fearless confidence of an advocate of the real and substantial rights of the people.

One prominent and strong feature of opposition, cannot have escaped the attention of any person who hears me--that all measures have been opposed that do not point to the concentration of the appointing power in the city of Albany. I wish to be relieved from the necessity of making such remarks; but I must speak now, or for ever hereafter hold my peace. And I shall speak the honest conviction of my heart, whoever may be included in its range, or whoever may be affected by its censure.

It is a lamentable fact, that while other states move on with tranquillity, the state of New-York, torn by factions and dissensions, although the keystone of the arch that binds the union, has lost its power, and reduced its influence. And what had been the grand cause of this reduction of influence and limitation of power? It was the corruption that had infused itself into all the veins and arteries of the government. More iniquity had been practised in our legislative hall, than in perhaps all the other states in the union. How, then, should this sore upon the body politic be healed? The unanimous vote of this committee had shown that the council of appointment was an evil. An unanimous sentence of condemnation has been passed upon it. He had not expected so soon to find a proposition for its revival. In this expectation he was disappointed, by the motion of the gentleman from Erie.

By the abolition of the old council it had been proposed to attain three grand objects: 1. the tranquillity of the state; 2. a preservation of the purity of the legislative body; and 3. the security of good and satisfactory appointments to office.

Mr. E. then entered upon a minute and elaborate examination of the subject, to prove that neither of the propositions presented were adequate to the purposes for which a supreme appointing power should be created. He maintain ed that the right of suffrage should first be placed in discreet and proper hands, and that nothing was then to be feared from the people in the exercise of their rights. They had never abused their powers. He strongly protested against any proposition that should bring back to Albany the appointment and distribution of the high offices of the government; and entered at large upon the propriety of electing the justices of the peace by the people. He deemed it essential to the security of the rights of the people, and to the peace and tranquillity of the state, that the appointing power should be removed from the precincts of the capitol. Return it to the power from whence it emanated, and we might safely calculate upon the blessings of a good government for our children, when their fathers should be laid in the dust.

MR. Ross replied to Mr. Edwards.

MR. KING asked the committee to indulge him in making a few observations, for the purpose of comparing the amendment with the report of the select committee. It was not quite obvious why a new council of appointment should now be proposed, if the reasons for the unanimous abolition of the old one, were not egregiously misunderstood. It has been said, and without being controverted on any side, that the existence of the old council at the seat of govern