dues; in that case, that part of your state from which they are due, would have an interest in the question different from the others; in the imposition, increase or decrease of duties on salt, for instance, the effect would be the same; indeed, in all improvements at the public expense, the advantage must, more or less, be equal, while the monies to make them, are raised from the people at large. On such occasions the representation which the different sections of the state have, in proportion to the taxes they pay, may become material. To give to property its relative weight in such cases, in Massachusetts, where this subject has been examined and discussed with a degree of wisdom and research highly honourable to the character of the state, they have thought it wise to apportion their representation in the senate on the basis of the assessment list. Is this representation enjoyed in any reasonable sense, under the existing constitution? Let facts decide.

By the assessment list in the comptroller's office, it appears that the southern district pays taxes on one hundred and thirteen millions of dollars--the western on fifty-five millions only--and yet the latter has nine senators, and the former only six; and after the next apportionment the disproportion will be still greater. Again the western distret, he said, paid one fifth more tax than the middle, which pays only forty-five millions, and yet their representation in the senate was equal. Again--the casern and middle districts possessed only one third of the wealth, and about thre sevenths of the population of the state, and they elect a majority of the senators. And, to conclude, the city of New-York alone, pays taxes on sixty-nine millions dollars, being twenty-seven millions more than the whole eastern district--twentyfour millions more than the middle district, and fourteen millions more than the western district, and the western district sends nine senators--the middle nint and the eastern eight, and the city of New-York one.

The representation, then, of property in t senate, under the existing constitution, was, he said, as it respected individu estates, wholly delusive, and as it respected the interest of property in the diffent sections of the state so flagrantly unequal as to destroy practical advantageo property from a representation of it, and not only so, but made it infinitely rse than if property was not professed to be represented at all.

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Under the present constitution, as it now stands, Sy Mr. V. B. that in equality must and would continue; and he would ask, wher it was desirable to reproductive of one solitary advantage? He thought not, and so he believed axeflecting men on examination, would likewise think. If it was not advisable, retain it, the next enquiry was, could it be altered? could the Massachusettstem be adopted? He would, he said, put it to the understandings of gentleme to say, whether, controling and omnipotent influence, which public opinion had in a country and government like ours, they supposed that the improved. I am convinced many reflecting men will say no; must say ne room for misunderstanding. Even in Massachusetts, where this part of their constitution, a re-apportionment of their senate was cessary, and adopted by their Convention, and rejected by the overwhelming majority, while the abolition of the property qualific It was rejected, be the elector had met with their cordial support. though the Convention were in favour of that system of apportionme people were opposed to it, and were determined that nothing farther shouthe done under it. If, then, in Massachusetts, where the regulation alreadye ists, it cannot be much longer sustained, no sensible man would deceive h self with the hope that it could be adopted here now, nor ought it to be adopte by us, if it were practicable, for reasons not now necessary to give.

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And what, he enquired had been its practical effects? had they been such as to afford any additional security to property? had the members of the senate, for years past, been more respectable for talents or integrity? had they shewn a greater regard for property? had they been more vigilant in guarding the public treasury than the assembly?

The senate, he said, was the only legislative body in which he had ever had the honour of a seat; and he had been there from a very early age-almost all his political connexions had been with that body-his earliest political recollections were associated with its proceedings, and he had had, in some of its proceedings, as much cause for individual gratification as could well, under the same circumstances, fall to the lot of any man; notwithstanding which, and also the strong partiality he had always felt for that body, he could not say, that in the many years he was there, the sentiment ever occurred to him, that such was the case. On the contrary, a regard to truth constrained him to say, that every thing, which regarded the imposition of public burdens, and the disposition of public property, were more closely looked into, and more severely scrutinized by the assembly than the senate. The sense of immediate responsibility to the people, produced more effect on the assembly, than the consideration, that they represented those, who were supposed principally to bear the burdens, did in the senate; and such, he conscientiously believed, would always be the case. He asked the members of the committee, whether they believed, that there had been a moment for the last forty years, when a proposition in the assembly to make an unjust distinction between real and personal property, in the imposition of public burdens, would not have been hooted out of that body, if any one had been found mad enough to have dared its introduction? Why, then, he asked, alarm ourselves by fears for the future, which the experience of the past had demonstrated to be erroneous? Why disregard the admonitions of experience, to pursue the dubious path of speculation and theory.

He had no doubt but the honourable gentlemen who had spoken in favour of the amendment, had suffered from the fearful forebodings which they had expressed. That ever to be revered band of patriots who made our constitution, entertained them also, and therefore they engrafted in it the clause which is now contended for. But a full and perfect experience had proved the fallacy of their speculations, and they were now called upon again to adopt the exploded notion; and on that ground, to disfranchise, if not a majority, nearly a moiety, of our citizens. He said he was an unbeliever in the speculations and mere theories on the subject of government, of the best and wisest men, when unsupported by, and especially when opposed to, experience. He believed with a sensible and elegant modern writer, "That constitutions are the work of time, not the invention of ingenuity; and that to frame a complete system of government, depending on habits of reverence and experience, was an attempt as absurd as to build a tree, or manufacture an opinion."

All our observation, he said, united to justify this assertion-when they looked at the proceedings of the Convention which adopted the constitution of the United States, they could not fail to be struck by the extravagance, and, as experience had proved, the futility of the fears and hopes that were entertained and expressed, from the different provisions of that constitution, by the memhers. The venerable and enlightened Franklin, had no hope if the president had the qualified negative, that it would be possible to keep him honest; that the extensive power of objecting to laws, would inevitably lead to the bestowment of doucers to prevent the exercise of the power; and many, very many of the members, believed that the general government, framed as it was, would, in a few years, prostrate the state governments. While, on the other hand, the lamented Hamilton, Mr. Madison, and others, distressed themselves with the apprehension, that unless they could infuse more vigour into the constitution they were about to adopt, the work of their hands could not be expected to survive its framers. Experience, the only unerring touchstone, had proved the fallacy of all those speculations, as it had also those of the framers of our state constitution, in the particular now under consideration; and having her records before them, he was for being governed by them.

But, continued Mr. Van Buren, we are told that the reason why the senators have not been more respectable, has been owing to the mode of their election, and that, if the districts are reduced in size, the representation will be improved. This, he considered, in every view of the matter, incorrect. tlemen had insinuated that they had heretofore been nominated in Albany. this he presumed they were not sincere, and if they were, he could see no rea

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son why that could not as well be done for the counties as for a large district. He should suppose it would be less difficult to manage the Convention of a single county, than that of a whole district. But further, the senators are now as much nominated by the counties as they then would be.

How would they be chosen if confined to the counties? Meetings of the respective parties, which now, and always will exist, would be held; and at such county meetings the candidates for senators would be nominated. As the districts now are, the candidates, in some cases, are nominated at district Conventions. The delegates to these conventions, are chosen at county meetings, and instructed who to nominate from the respective counties, and the instances were rare in which such instructions were disregarded. The mode of their nomination, therefore, would be in effect the same.

But was it not probable, said he, that the increase of the senatorial districts to the number of senators, as intended by the mover of the amendment, would lessen the respectability of the selections. Parties would always exist, and they would always consult their interest in the selection of candidates for public places. Their first and chief object was success: to ensure that, they would, when in large districts, select a man whose standing and talents were such as to render it probable that his name would be acceptable in remote parts of the district, whilst if the election was confined to a small district, they might be induced to reward a favourite for mere party services, when confident that there would be no danger in the attempt.

But this was not the only point of view in which the notion of small districts would interfere with the arguments in support of the amendment under consideration. One which had been urged by the honourable mover, and one which was entitled, perhaps, to most consideration, was the propriety, if not necessity, of making the two branches of the legislature, as different in their creation and organization as is practicable, to ensure the advantages to be derived from having two branches. In this point of view, the circumstance of representing dif ferent counties and territories was of no mean value. Members of the assembly were not unfrequently much concerned in the advancement of the local interests of their respective counties. And in all such cases, if they and the senators represent the same men, their feelings and influence in regard to every matter relating to their respective counties, would be the same. But if notif the senator was the representative of a district composed of a number of counties, he would feel his responsibility encreased in proportion to the extension of his trust and he would act upon, and as far as was practicable, reconcile the clashing views of the members from the different counties in his district. The expectation, therefore, that the senate would be improved by any thing to be done on the score of districts, was, he thought, without foundation; and the question under consideration, should be tested under a conviction that the provision contended for, would, for the future, produce as much effect as it had for the past, and no more.

If, then, it was true that the present representation of property in the senate was ideal, and purely ideal, did not, continued Mr. V. B. sound policy dictate an abandonment of it, by the possessors of property? He thought it did; he thought so because he held it to be at all times, and under all circumstances, and for all interests, unwise to struggle against the wishes of any portion of the people to subject yourselves to a wanton exposure to public prejudice, to struggle for an object, which, if attained, was of no avail. He thought so, because the retaining of this qualification in the present state of public opinion, would have a tendency to excite jealousy in the minds of those who had no freehold property, and because more mischief was to be apprehended from that source than any other. It was calculated to excite that prejudice because not requiring sufficient to effect the object in view, it, in the language of Dr. Franklin," exhibited liberty in disgrace, by bringing it in competition with accident and insignificance."

But, said Mr. V. B. we have been referred to the opinions of General Hamilton, as expressed in his writings in favour of the constitution of the United States, as supporting this amendment. He should not detain the committee by adding any thing to what had been said of his great worth, and splendid talents

He would omit it, because he could not add to the encomiums which had been delivered on this floor, on his life and character. The tribute to departed worth had been justly paid by the honourable gentlemen from Albany and Orange, (Messrs. Spencer and Duer.) But there was nothing in the Federalist to sup port the amendment:-Without troubling the committee by reading the number which had been referred to, it would be sufficient for him to say, that it could not be supposed, that the distinguished men who had done a lasting benefit to their country, and had earned for themselves the highest honours, by the work in question, could have urged the propriety, of a property representation, in one branch of the legislature, in favour of a constitution, which contained no such provision. They had not done so.

We were, said Mr. V. B. next referred by the honourable mover of the amendment, to the opinion of Mr. Jefferson, as expressed in his Notes on Virginia. In making that reference, the honourable gentleman had done himself credit; and had rendered but justice to the merits of the distinguished individual, whose opinion he had sought to enlist on his side. He had truly said,' that now, when the strong party feeling which attended the public measures in which Mr. Jefferson was an actor, had in some degree subsided, most men united in the acknowledgment of his deserts. That sentiment, however, it appeared, was not general, since the gentleman from Columbia (Mr. E. Williams) distinctly avows, the retention of his old prejudices. Whilst that gentleman was trumpet-tongued, in denouncing the impropriety of indulgence, in party feelings by others, he had given them the strongest reason to believe, that his own were immortal; that they had not only survived the "era of good feeling" through which we had passed, but were likely to continue. But that notwithstanding, he still thought of Mr. Jefferson, as he always had done, he would condescend to use him for the occasion. Sir, said Mr. V. B. it is grating to one's feelings, to hear a man, who has done his country the greatest service, and who at this moment occupies more space in the public mind, than any other private citizen in the world, thus spoken of. But no more of this.

Mr. Jefferson did complain, in 1781, of the constitution of Virginia, because the two branches of their legislature were not sufficiently dissimilar, but he did not point out the mode in which he thought that object could be best ef fected.

In 1783, when, as he had before stated, a convention was expected in Virginia, he prepared a form of government to be submitted to the people, in which he provided the same qualification for both branches, and shewed clearly, either that his opinion had undergone a change on the subject, or that he supposed the object would be effected by the difference of their term of service, and the districts they represented.

The next consideration which had been pressed upon the committee by the honourable mover of the amendment, was, the apprehension that the persons employed in the manufactories which now were, or which, in the progress of time, might be established amongst us, would be influenced by their employers. So far as it respected the question before the committee, said Mr. V. B. it was a sufficient answer to the argument, that if they were so influenced, they would be enlisted on the same side, which it was the object of the amendment to promote, on the side of property. If not-if they were independent of the influence of their employers, they would be safe depositories of the right. For no man, surely, would contend that they should be deprived of the right of voting on account of their poverty, except so far as it might be supposed to impair their independence, and the consequent purity of the exercise of that invaluable right.

The honourable gentleman from Albany, (Mr. Spencer) had next directed their attention to the borough elections in England, as evidence of the consequences which might be expected from the non-adoption of his amendment. Mr. V. B. said he could not, in his view of the subject, on the most mature reflection, have selected an argument better calculated to prove the amendment to be unwise and improper, than this one, on which the gentleman mainly relied for its support. What, sir, said he, was the cause of the corruptions which confessedly prevail in that portion of the representation in the parliament of

Great Britain? Was it the lowness of the qualifications of the electors, in comparison with the residue of the country? No. In many of the boroughs a freehold qualification was required; in most, that they should be burgage holders; and in all, that they should be freemen, paying scot and lot. Compare, said Mr. V. B. these qualifications with those required in Westminster, and it will be found that the lowest of the former are equal to the latter. It could not be necessary for him to say, that if the will of the people prevailed in any election in England-if patriotism and public spirit was sure to find its appropriate reward any where in that country, it was at the Westminster elections. The qualifications of the electors, therefore, was not the cause, except it was in some instances where the election was confined to a very few, as for instance, to the mayor and common council of a borough. But I will tell you, sir, said Mr. V. B. what is the cause-it is because the representation in question, is a representation of things, and not of men-it is because that it is attached to territory, to a village or town, without regard to the population; as by the amendment under consideration, it is attempted here to be attached to territory, and to territory only. Suppose, for a moment, that the principles on which the report of the select committee is based, and which the amendment opposes, should be applied to the representation in the parliament of Great Britain-that instead of her present representation, it should be apportioned among all their subjects who contribute to the public burthens? Would you hear any complaints in that country on the subject of their rotten boroughs? No, sir; but on the contrary, that reform in parliament would be at once obtained, for which the friends of reform in that devoted country have so long contended, and which they probably never will obtain, except (to use the language of the gentleman from Albany) at the point of the bayonet. He could not, therefore, but think that the illustration resorted to, by the honourable mover of the amendment, was most unfortunate to his argument, nor ought he to withhold his thanks for the suggestion.

There were, continued Mr. V. B. many, very many, considerations, besides those he had noticed, which could, with propriety and profit, be urged on this occasion, to shew the impropriety of the amendment. There were several which it was his intention at first to urge. He had designed too, to notice some of the remarks which fell from the gentleman from Columbia, (Mr. Williams,) but as he was not certain that what he should say, would produce that state of feeling necessary on so interesting a subject, he would omit it. The time which he had already occupied-the very flattering attention with which the committee had listened to him, an attention demanding and receiving his utmost gratitude, induced him to forbear from trespassing further on their patience. The great importance, therefore, of having various interests, various talents, and men of rarions pursuits, in the senate, to secure a due attention to, and a perfect understanding of, the various concerns to which legislation might be applied in this state, the origin of the freehold requisition in England and here, together with the aasons why that distinction, though proper at the time of the adoption of our constitution, had almost entirely ceased to be wise or just and also the causes which must inevitably render it in a short time, in our country at least, very unnecessary and ineffectual, together with topics like those, he would leave to the very judicious remarks which had already been made, and to such as might hereafter be made by others.

I he could possibly believe, added Mr. V. B. that any portion of the calaraitous consequences could result from the rejection of the amendment, which had been so feelingly pourtrayed by the honourable gentleman from Albany, (Mr. Kent,) and for whom he would repeat the acknowledgment of his respect and rezard, he would be the last man in society who would vote for it. But, believing, as he conscientiously did, that those fears were altogether unfoundcd; hoping and expecting that the happiest results would follow from the abolition of the freehold qualification, and hoping too, that caution and circumspection would preside over the settlement of the general right of suffrage, which was hereafter to be made, and knowing, besides, that this state, in abolishing the freehold qualifications, would but be uniting herself in the march of principle, which had already prevailed in every state of the union, except two