very embarrassing. If we adopt this substitute in toto, we not only strike out the first clause of the report, but we pass affirmatively on the various provisions of this amendment-we take them all together-it is not allowed by the rule of the Convention to add an amendment to an amendment, and we must therefore take it whole, or not at all. We are, therefore, losing time.

GEN. ROOT said he was sorry the gentleman felt himself in such a difficult situation, but he thought he could relieve the gentleman from his embarrassment. The amendment was amendable. The question on it might be divided; motions to strike out and insert, are in order. There is no difficulty in it.

MR. EASTWOOD. The gentleman from Delaware, (Mr. Root,) previous to offering his amendment, spoke at length on the subject; not, however, in favour of his amendment; for I presume he could say nothing in favour of it; but against the report of the committee, in order to have room for his substitute. But I think there is nothing which ought to entitle this amendment to farther consideration, except the source from which it came: and here, in justice to the mover, I beg leave to say, that I do consider him one of the most honest and perfect men in this state; I mean to be understood in a legislative point of view; but honest as that gentleman may be, there can be no great harm in watching him pretty narrowly on this occasion; for, if I mistake not, it will take several blasts from Delaware before this amendment will be blown through the house, as it now stands. A very honest lawyer, (I beg pardon, sir,) in looking over this amendment yesterday, said he could not understand it; and I think that he told the truth on that occasion. On the whole, I think it best to dispose of this amendment by laying it on the table with your bill of rights, which went there a few days ago on motion of the gentleman from Dutchess (Mr. Livingston.) Let it lie there with that, until the first day of January next, I should not object to their being released then from confinement, and committed to the flames, where they ought to have been sent before they were ever brought in this hall. I will not point you to any particular line or part of this amendment, but call your attention to the whole fabric. It is all alike. It is all good for nix come rouse. The gentleman has undertaken to do too much. Let us lay his amendment aside, and take up the original report, line after line. This will be the proper way, in my opinion, for us to proceed, and much time will be saved thereby.

MR. SHELDON spoke in favour of several of the provisions of Mr. Root's amendments, which he preferred on many grounds, to the proposition reported by the committee. But when that amendment goes to treat of questions already agitated and decided here, and more particularly when it goes to disqualify a class of citizens for whom I have a great respect, whom on account of their conscientious scruples he wishes to disfranchise, I cannot go along with him. I therefore move you that the question on the substitute be divided, so as to take the sense of the committee on the provisions contained in the first fourteen lines down to the word "state"—of which the effect would be to pass on all the provisions of this substitute, except those disqualifying "quakers and negroes."

A long discussion here ensued between Messrs. Sheldon, Wendover, Sharpe, Root, and the Chairman, as to the proper mode of proceeding in relation to the amendment of Mr. Root, which that honourable gentleman declared not to be a substitute-(for he had never offered a substitute in his life)-when it was finally, decided to take the question on Mr. Sheldon's motion.

COL. YOUNG declared his preference of many parts of this amendment to the original report of the committee, although he had been a member of that committee. He was willing to require that, in addition to militia duty, the person performing it should be a resident, and be duly armed and equipped. I think there is not much force in the objection made by the gentleman from Oneida, (Mr. Platt.)

MR. VAN BUREN thought it impossible to be guilty of a greater political heresy, than was proposed by the clause of the amendment of the gentleman from Delaware, and which his intelligent friend from Saratoga had fallen into—that of subjecting the votes of all the citizens of this state, between the ages of 18 and 45 to a law of congress. (Mr. Root here informed Mr. Van Buren that

the question was now on the first part of the amendment, which did not tough this question.)-In that case, rejoined Mr. Van Buren, the question is much narrowed down? we have all agreed on the abolition of existing qualifications for voters, and I prefer the part of the amendment of the gentleman from Delaware now under consideration, to the report of the committee, and shall vote for it. As to the remainder of it, I presume, upon reflection, it will not be passed. MR. WENDOVER offered another motion, which Mr. Tompkins rose to say he thought out of order, and a discussion arose between Messrs. Tompkins, Young, and the Chairman, as to the point of order, when Mr. Root agreed to adopt it as part of his amendment. The object of it was to insert the word "last" so as to make it necessary that the residence should be for the "last six months" before an election. Mr. Spencer moved to add " next preceding the day of," so as to make it quite clear that the habitation in the state must be for the year preceding the election--which Mr. Root accepted.

MR. NELSON moved to strike out the words rendering it necessary that a militia-man "should be armed and equipped." If this prevail, Mr. Nelson said, you not only fine the militia-man for not having his equipments, but you disfranchise him-and thus, for not having a bayonet or a priming wire, the citizen is not only subject to a pecuniary fine, but to the loss of his highest political privilege. Mr. Nelson therefore moved an amendment to the effect stated.

MR. KING said, much time would have been saved to the house by amending, by separate provisions, the original report of the committee. The amendment now proposed by the gentleman from Delaware, contains a variety of propositions and qualifications, some of property, some of military service, some of taxes; and we are called upon to adopt them altogether. The gentleman disclaims the name of substitute for his proposition; but he must allow me to call that a substitute, and not an amendment, which goes to strike out the whole substance of an original proposition, and substitutes others in their place, various in their nature, importance, and effect. If it would suit the convenience of the gentleman from Delaware, it would be accellerating the business of the committee, and perhaps more in order, to propose his separate plans one by one, as amendments, and let us pass on each singly.

MR. SHELDON rose with great reluctance on a point of order, in opposition to a gentleman of so much experience, and of talents, to which all were dispos ed to defer. But he must differ from the gentleman last up, and thought the state of the question not difficult, nor even irregular. Mr. Sheldon explained at length his views on the point, and as to the difference between the original report of the committee and that part of the amendment now under consideration.

GEN. TALLMADGE made some remarks as to the point of order, and then in conformity with the suggestion of the honourable gentleman from Queens, moved, that the question on the amendment be divided into seven different parts; so that each precise point might be decided by every question.

GEN. ROOT made some further remarks as to the point of order-when

MR. VAN BUREN moved, that the committee rise and report, which was carried; and the President having resumed the chair, the chairman reported progress, and asked leave to sit again; which being granted, the Convention then adjourned.

SATURDAY, september 22, 1821.

The Convention assembled at the usual hour. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. RICE. The minutes of yesterday were then read and approved.

MR. WENDOVER renewed his proposition made several days since, that hercafter when the Convention is in committee of the whole, the chairman shall take the President's seat; on the ground, that in the northwestern part of the house, it was impossible to hear, unless the chair was elevated higher than the seat provided for the chairman. Carrie !.

LEGISLATIVE DEPARTMENT.

MR. HOGEBOOM proposed to offer a substitute for the 5th section of the report of the committec on the legislative department, that the same might be referred to the committee of the whole when on that subject.

After some discussion on the question of order, the same was referred accordingly, after having been read, in the following words:

"That it shall be the duty of the supervisors of the respective counties of this state, at their annual meetings, to ascertain, by a majority of votes, the sum of money the respective members of the legislature of this state ought to receive for their services per day, and certify, under their hands, and deliver the same to the clerks of their respective counties, who shall keep the same on file, and forthwith transmit a copy thereof to each of the members elect of their respective counties; and the said members shall deliver the said certificates within eight days after the commencement of the session of the legislature, to the secretary of state, whose duty it shall be to record one certificate from each county, in a book to be kept by him for that purpose; and it shall be the futher duty of the secretary of this state, within one month after receiving the said certificates, to ascertain the average sum of all the returns received, and certify and deliver the same, onecopy to the President of the senate, and one copy to the speaker of the house of assembly, which said sum all be the compensation to be established by law, adding the usual allowance to the president of the senate, and speaker of the house of assembly."

THE ELECTIVE FRANCHISE.

On motion of MR. N. SANFORD, the Convention then resolved itself into a committee of the whole, on the unfinished business of yesterday, (Mr. Root's amendment,) Mr. N. Williams in the chair.

CHIEF JUSTICE SPENCER moved to amend the amendment under consideration, by inserting after the word "state," the words following:

"Other than for senators; and that in elections for senators, every free male citizen of the age of 21 years, who shall have been, one year next preceding the election, an inhabitant of this state, and at the time of offering himself as an elector, shall have an interest in law or equity, in his own or in his wife's right, in any lands or tenements in this state, of the value of $250 over and above all debts charged thereon, shall be entitled to vote for senators in the town or ward in which he shall reside."

Mr. Chairman-In presenting you the amendment, (said the Chief Justice,) which I have now moved, it will be perceived that if it be adopted, there will be different qualifications for the electors of the senate, and of the governor, lieutenant-governor, and members of assembly, and all other elective officers. The constitution, as it now stands, provides that the senate shall consist of thirty-two freeholders, to be chosen by the freeholders of the state, possessed of freeholds of the value of 1007. over and above all debts charged thereon. The report of the select committee, and the amendment of the gentleman from Delaware, propose, with the dash of the pen, to obliterate this part of our constitution, to destroy a barrier in legislation, which the wisdom of the sages and patriots of the revolution have erected for our protection. It has been insinuated, that as we have already unanimously agreed to abolish the existing qualifications of electors, we in some measure stand pledged to abolish the distinction between the electors of the senate and assembly. This is not a correct deduction from the vote we have given. The vote taken implies no more than that we are willing to extend the right of suffrage, as far as may consist with the public good, but no farther. It will be perceived, that the amendment I have the honour to propose, admits all persons having an interest in real estate of the value of two hundred and fifty dollars, either in law or equity, without regard to the tenure, so that persons having a leasehold interest, or holding lands under contract for purchase, and who shall have by payments or improvements, added to the value to the amount of two hundred and fifty dollars, will be entitled to vote for senators; and the right will extend to those who hold lands in right of their wives.

It is well known, sir, that in the rapid and unexampled extension of the settlement of the western parts of our state, a mode of selling lands, not within the view or contemplation of the framers of our constitution, has become common. I mean sales by contract, stipulating to give deeds, when the purchase money shall have been paid. In that immense and fertile territory, owned by the Holland company, sales by such contracts are the usual and ordinary modes. This has also been the case, very extensively, in other parts of the state. These industrious and valuable citizens, who have paid portions of the purchase money, or who have made valuable and useful improvements, ought to be entitled to vote for senators, and the amendment I propose will give them that right. They ought thus to vote, because they represent portions of the soil, and because they have that attachment to the preservation of all the rights incident to real estate.

I must not be misunderstood-I am willing and desirous that the rights of suffrage be established on a broad and liberal basis, comprehending for the one branch or the other, all those who possess sufficient independence to exercise this important privilege in a manner compatible with the interests of society itself.

It would seem to me, that those who propose to abolish all distinctions between the electors of the senate, and other officer of the government, were bound to shew to this Convention, either that this abolition was demanded by the farmers and the people of this state, or that the original institution itself was vicious in principle, or bad in its operation. I hope it is not enough to induce us to make such a material innovation in our form of government, merely because we hope, or believe, it will improve our constitution, or that other states have not adopted the same provision.

It has been assumed, that the people call for this alteration-that they do expect an extension of the right of suffrage, I believe and admit; but that they demand the abolition of all distinction in the qualification of electors for the senate and assembly, I do not know or believe; and I may confidently demand the proof of any general call or expectation, that such a measure should be adopted. Has the constitution operated badly in this respect? Or is the organization of the senate unsound or vicious in principle?

If it shall be insisted that for the last twenty years, the senate has not been superior to the assembly in wisdom or gravity, are there not causes by which we can account for this deficiency? The constitution divided the state into four great districts; and although these have been altered, still they have been very large and extensive. The candidates for election have been unknown to nine-tenths of the electors, they have never been heard of, until their names were announced for their choice; and when we superadd to this, that the state for a long period has been rent and torn by faction-that party spirit has pervaded the whole community-that active, and ambitious, and restless individuals have assumed the direction and control of elections, it is not to be wondered at, that the senate has not been such as the framers of the constitution contemplated; for the question put by the electors as to the qualifications of candidates, has not been whether they were wise, or good, or virtuous, but what are their politics, and under whose banner are they enrolled?

This deplorable state of things, which has disgraced us as a people and a state, will no longer exist, if we adopt and improve the report of the legislative committee in subdividing the state, not only into seventeen, but as I fervently hope, into thirty-two electoral districts for senators. Then the anticipation and wisdom of those immortal patriots, whose labours we are now revising, will appear; then the electors and the elected will become known to each; then we may hope to see our senate what it ought to be, the council of ancients, composed of great, wise, good, and grave men.

Those, Mr. Chairman, who suppose that a sound branch of the legislature, the senate, was intended merely as a check upon the first, (the assembly) appear to me to have misunderstood its organization and design. It was intended to be differently composed and differently organized for other purposes, than a mere second branch of legislation.

The objects of government are the protection of life, liberty, and property. These are important and paramount rights; and every wise frame of government will extend its protecting care over all and each of them.

The assembly, consisting of greater numbers, elected by all the sound and wholesome part of the adult male population of the state, is more emphatically charged with the protection and preservation of the personal rights, the lives and liberties of the citizens.-The senate was intended as the guardians of our property generally, and especially of the landed interest, the yeomanry of the

state.

I shall ask leave of the committee, sir, to submit to them the ideas of an illustrious statesman, now no more. I have heard with great pleasure an eulogy pronounced on another occasion, on the deceased Gen. Hamilton-It met my most hearty approbation. Now that he is entombed, we can do justice to his memory without incurring envy or reproach. For profundity of thought, for purity of intention, for depth of research, and clearness of investigation, none excelled him; and I may say with truth, that his name and his works have added lustre and honour to our nation. In the 62d number of the Federalist, attributed to his pen, and undoubtedly his own, in speaking of the organization of the senate of the United States, he says: "It is a misfortune, incident to republican government, though in a less degree than to other governments, that those who administer it, may forget their obligations to their constituents, and prove unfaithful to their important trust.-In this point of view a senate, as a second branch of the legislative assembly, distinct from, and dividing the power with a first, must be in all cases a salutary check on the government. It doubles the security of the people, by requiring the concurrence of two distinct bodies in schemes of corruption, or perfidy, where the ambition or corrup tion of one would otherwise be sufficient. This is a precaution founded on such clear principles, and now so well understood in the United States, that it would be more than superfluous to enlarge on it. I will barely remark, that as the improbability of sinister combinations will be in proportion to the dissimilarity in the genius of the two bodies, il must be politic to distinguish them from each other by every circumstance which will consist with a due harmony in all proper measures, and with the genuine principles of republican government."

Here is a distinct admonition that a dissimilarity in the genius of the two legislative branches, adds to the security of the people. But we are not without another high authority from a most distinguished source. The opinions of Mr. Jefferson have been read to the Convention, on a former question, by a member from Otsego; that great man, though alive, and living in dignified and philosophic retirement, may be considered as much withdrawn from the contentions and strifes of the world, as if he were entombed--He has given us a precise and distinct avowal of his matured opinion on this interesting point. In his Notes on Virginia, he has discussed the imperfections of their constitution, and given to the world the substance of a constitution, which he wished to see adopted in his native state. In speaking of the senate under the existing government, he says :-" The senate is by its constitution, too homogeneous with the house of delegates; being chosen by the same electors, at the same time, and out of the same subjects, the choice falls of course on men of the same description. The purpose of establishing different houses of legislation is to introduce the influence of different interests or different principles."

Can there be a plainer, or more self-evident proposition, as applied to the private transactions of men; than if an individual, having great and interesting concerns, found it necessary to appoint two agents to manage those concerns, as guards and checks against the dishonesty or the defective judgment of the one, would he appoint two precisely similar in their feelings, judgments, motives, and habits? Or, if wise, would he not select men possessing different qualities, that thus be might combine every thing essential to the promotion and preservation of his own interests? If the agents were exactly alike, moved by the same impulses, having an identity of qualifications, in effect he would have but one agent, and his precaution of checks would be nugatory.

In my judgment, sir, there are other and mightier considerations still, in favour of the proposition which I have submitted. From the vast extent of this state, from the fertility of its soil, and the salubrity of its climate, we are destin