Q. You spoke of these marginal notes being put there by instructions from the chairman; has the chairman at any time since you have been engaged with this committee told you to make a statement or to make a figure and report it to the committee that did not appear from the reports of the department?-A. Of course not.

Mr. INGALLS. Nobody supposed that.

Q. (By the CHAIRMAN.) What has been your general instruction on this committee as to reports and statements that you should make generally?—A. Always to take the figures as I found them, and to take reports as I found them, and compare them; to stick to facts.

By Mr. BECK:

Q. You said just now, in answer to the chairman, that the figures in this original warrant, 919 of 1870, were scratched and appeared to have been altered?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did the chairman at any time say more to you than to make a note of these facts as you believed them, and put them in red ink, so that they would appear to be your comments?-A. That was all he said; just to call attention to them.

Q. And you have noted them down?-A. I said that I was ordered to do it because I considered it all right that I should do it.

Q. You had yourself stated that you found these erasures and apparent alterations, and he simply said to you then, "note that down in red ink, so as to be distinct," and you have put down what you yourself believed to be true, and so told him?-A. Yes, sir; they appear to be scratched. I do not want to be misunderstood in saying I was ordered to do it. I meant that I was ordered to put that marginal note there, and I put it there the way I was ordered, so as to call attention.

By Mr. INGALLS:

Q. In language furnished by the chairman ?-A. Yes, sir.

By Mr. BECK:

Q. So as not to confuse the copy?-A. Yes, sir. By looking in this way you see exactly what figures were scratched.

Q. You, yourself, first told the chairman that these figures were scratched and apparently altered?-A. Yes, sir; I showed them to him on the books, too.

Q. Then he desired the note to be written down to indicate that fact?— A. Yes, sir.

Q. And it is so dong?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. For no other purpose?-A. No other purpose.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Q. In making the different statements which you have prepared; including the one that Senator Ingalls called your attention to, as to the receipts of the government, have you, in any instance, substituted a figure or a statement that the official reports or statements furnished by the department will not bear out?-A. I never did anything but put down the actual statements.

Q. Have you ever used any figures of your own except in additions?— A. Never.

Q. I understand you now to state distinctly to the committee that you have in no instance since you have been connected with this committee, in any statement you have prepared, used any figures that were not taken from the official reports or statements of the department to this committee?-A. You mean the actual figures in these tables? No, sir; I have never used anything else.

Q. Of course, there are additions you have made yourself, and compilations in a different form; but were all the figures that you have used in your different statements taken from official reports, either in print or in writing?-A. I have never used anything but the figures in the official reports; never used a figure of my own. Your instructions to me were to take the figures as I found them, and I never had any instructions at all to use any other figures but those I found in the official reports.

By Mr. INGALLS:

Q. But all the figures you have selected have been under the direction of the chairman.-A. How do you mean "selected"? The form of making out a report-for instance, the form of that report is merely to show as an experiment the difference between making up the public debt from Receipts and Expenditures, and from Issues and Redemptions, and the result shows exactly the figures in the Finance Report of 1876. Q. Your tables do not show everything that has appeared in the books of the Secretary of the Treasury and of the Register from the foundation of the government? You have made certain selectionscertain compilations.-A. I took the net ordinary receipts, the total receipts for loans and Treasury notes, and the net ordinary expenditures and the net ordinary expenditures on account of loans, and the figures are precisely the same, only I have taken certain periods and added them together.

Q. Under the direction of the chairman ?-A. To carry out his views, to see how it would result; but I used none but the official figures. I did not say I selected any figures. I took all the figures. I do not take certain portions of the account and reject others. I took the total figures. I added to a certain period, and then I added from the beginning to the next period.

Q. You have made a compilation from the Finance Report of 1877A. Yes, sir.

Q. Your compilation does not comprise every table there is in that book?-A. I say, "Statement taken from Secretary's statements in Finance Reports and to committee."

Q. Your statement taken from the Finance Report of 1877 does not include all the statements there are in that book ?-A. No, sir.

Q. What I am calling your attention to, is to ascertain whether in selecting from the finance and other reports of different years, you have acted under the direction of the chairman of the committee?-A. I made up the statements to conform to his views, but not to pick things out. It is the entire statement; it is not picking out portions; it is the entire statement, as you will find by adding those together.

Q. It does not appear in your statement as it does in the statement of the Register of the Treasury. It appears in different shape, does it not?-A. It is only a different shape, but it is the same matter.

Q. It appears in different shape, does it not? Your table does not appear in the same shape as it appears in the report of the Register of the Treasury?—A. No, sir; not in the same shape, but it contains the

same matter.

Q. Compiled in a different way, grouped, compiled, made up differently?-A. Mr. Senator, if you take here the gross receipts down to 1832, and add them together, if you understand the nature of these columns, you will see that my statement is just those three columns added together indicating].

Q. Now, come right back to my question. I asked you whether or not in submitting the compilations of figures that you have made from

the different reports of the Treasury, you have acted under the directions of the chairman of this committee?-A. To use nothing but the official figures, yes, sir; but to compile them in a certain way.

Q. Different from what they appear in the books?-A. The aggregates are the same.

Q: Nobody doubts that; but I ask you if they do not appear in your tables in a different way from what they appear on the books of the Treasury-A. They do appear in a different way, but the result is the same, as this in the Finance Report of 1876 proves.

Q. Did you see a special dispatch in the New York Tribune yesterday or the day before, purporting to emanate from Washington, declaring that Senator Davis, of West Virginia, had discovered from testimony taken before this committee that bonds of the United States could be issued by one person?-A. Yes, sir; I saw that statement.

Q. Do you know how that was communicated to the New York Tribune?-A. I have not the least idea.

Q. Have you ever seen any reporter on the subject?-A. I am not acquainted with any reporter. I do not know a single reporter personally.

Q. You understood that the directions of the committee were that nothing occurring before it should be communicated?-A. The copy of the testimony was put in here and I locked it up in my desk and I did not let anybody see that copy until I saw the chairman the day after that thing appeared and got his permission to let Mr. Fletcher and Captain Bayley read their testimony.

Q. You understood that the order of the committee was that nothing should be communicated to anybody?-A. It has been faithfully kept here.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Q Have you had instructions from time to time to be careful and let no one except Treasury officials see the testimony as taken by this committee?-A. I have always kept it under lock and key.

Q. Have you had that instruction?-A. Yes, sir; positive instructions to let nobody see it except those who were giving their testimony, and to confine them to their own testimony.

Q. Do you know whether or not the chairman of this committee has made repeated efforts to know how information got to the Tribune as to the testimony taken by this committee?-A. I have known you to go down to the Register and try to trace it through the department here.

Q. Do you know whether or not it has been stated in the department that the information was gotten out through some one in the department?-A. I had some hearsay evidence last summer on that point, but I do not want to criminate anybody.

Q. As to Table No. 3 C, "prepared by Senate Committee on Treasury Accounts," the same table about which Mr. Ingalls has asked you some questions, when you made that table it was taken from between certain dates and made by adding up the total amounts as taken from the Finance Reports?-A. Yes, sir; and you will find those totals agree with the totals in the last report of the Secretary of the Treasury.

Q. Take the public debt, treated by Receipts and Expenditures instead of Issues and Redemptions, how much difference does there appear to be by that statement?-A. $116,000,000, in round numbers.

Q. Does that agree in amount with the statement made and found in the Finance Report of 1871, made up by Mr. Bayley, who gave testimony

here?-A. No, sir; it agrees with the Finance Report of 1876, page 18, because there were some other things brought in in the mean time. Q. How much difference was there?-A. $250.

Q. Then the statement you have been questioned about by Senator Ingalls, and the one produced here by Mr. Bayley, the Treasury clerk, agree within $250?-A. Exactly. They are precisely the same when divided into periods.

Q. They would have agreed but that he stopped in 1871, and you went further?-A. I went to 1879, and in the mean time there has been an expenditure where there has been no corresponding receipt. If you state the public debt by Receipts and Expenditures, every expenditure where there has been no receipt will make a corresponding discrepancy in this way of stating the public debt.

By Mr. DAWES :

Q. And that is the explanation of this whole trouble?—A. Yes, sir. By the CHAIRMAN:

Q. Then I understand that in making up the debt by Receipts and Expenditures instead of the way it was formerly made up, by Issues and Redemptions, there is a difference of $116,000,000.-A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that is principally from the fact that bonds were issued for which no amounts went into the Treasury, and when they were redeemed money went out of the Treasury for them.-A. Yes, sir. There is another thing. If a loan is sold at a discount the difference between the receipts from that loan and the par value will make exactly a corresponding discrepancy in this way of stating the public debt.

The tables produced by Mr. Woodville were offered in evidence and received, and are as follows: