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The eight (8) ledgers enumerated below have also been examined, with the results as stated.
Three (3) ledgers from office of Register.
Title of ledger.
Number of erasures and appar
1. Interior appropriation ledger From July 1, 1861, to June 30, 1868. One hundred and fifty-three.
No. 4. 2. Naval appropriation ledger From July 1, 1861, to June 30, 1866. One hundred and thirty-seven.
No. 6. 3. Military appropriation ledger From July 1, 1867, to June 30, 1871. One hundred and thirty-eight.
Six (6) ledgers from office of Secretary of Treasury.
Title of ledger.
Number of erasures and appar
4. Interior appropriation ledger From July 1, 1860, to June 30, 1868. Two hundred and ninety-six.
No. 3. 5. Naval appropriation ledger From July 1, 1860, to June 30, 1863 One hundred and ninety-three.
No. 5. 6. Naval appropriation ledger From July 1, 1863, to June 30, 1867. Six hundred and sixty-eight.
No. 6. 7. Naval appropriation ledger From July 1, 1867, to June 30, 1875. Four hundred and fifty.seven.
No.7. 8. Military appropriation ledger From July 1, 1859, to June 30, 1863. One hundred and sixty-eight.
Three ledgers from Register's Office, containing .............. 428 erasures and apparent alterations. Six ledgers from Secretary's Office, containing ...
.... 2, 099 erasures and apparent alterations. Total in 9 ledgers 8........
.... 2, 527 I certify that I have carefully examined the nine (9) ledgers enumerated above, and that the foregoing is a true statement of the erasures and apparent alterations.
JNO. W. GENTRY,
Q. (By Mr. DAWES.) In the cases where your tables show what are called erasures and alterations, are you able to tell what the figures, as they now exist, have been substituted for?-A. I am not.
Q. Then you are not able to state what is the amount, if any, of an alteration in any given case?-A. I am not.
Q. And you have not meant to state in your column of amounts that the alterations have been to the amount stated 1-A. By no means.
Q. Only that those are the figures which now exist in those items ?-A. The figures which now appear on the books.
Q. Whether there bad been an alteration from one figure to another you do not know; you only know that there have been erasures, which appear to have been for the purpose of putting something else in the place of what was there originally ?-A. Yes, sir.
Q. Whether there was a change from one figure to another, or whether there had been any there originally, you are not able to say !-A. There are some cases in which part of a figure may be seen. Of course I do not know what the figures were.
Q. You do not know what that which now appears was substituted for in any case 1-A. I do not. .
Q. So you are unable to state whether this was done at the time the entry was originally made or afterwards ?-A. I cannot say as to that.
Q. You cannot say whether it was done at the time the entries were originally made or afterward?-A. No, sir.
Q. Of course, then, you could not tell whether it was done before or
after the books were balanced up ?-A. I could not. If the alterations were made-if there were alterations made before the books were balanced, there would be changes in the amount of the balances.
Q. But the change in the footings might have been made at the time the footings were made, might they not ?-A. That might be.
Q. And they might have been made afterward ?-A. Yes, sir.
Q. These erasures that have attracted your attention are sometimes in receipts• into the Treasury, and sometimes in payments out of the Treasury, are they not?-A. Yes, sir; in payments. I did not examine receipts.
Q. A receipt into the Treasury is covered by a warrant, is it not ?-A. That is my understanding.
Q. And so it is in the case of a payment out of the Treasury ?-A. Yes, sir.
Q. In this table have you followed those items into the other corresponding books of the Treasury, to ascertain whether there was the same erasure or alteration apparently in the other books?-A. I have through three sets of books.
Q. Is the result stated here !--A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you also sought the warrant? --A. I examined some of the warrants that I selected. • Q. Some of the warrants referring to items in this table ?-A. Yes, sir; there is one warrant, No. 919, an appropriation warrant.
Q. Have you examined these warrants covering into, or paying out of the Treasury for the items which have no entry under the head of “ warrant” in this table -A. I have not.
Q. The only warrants which you have examined are those which have some entry under the head of 6 warrant” here -A. Yes, sir; some of the warrants paying money out are noted on the margin, which I selected. Here is one case where it is marked, “not scratched." In each case I have noted whether the warrant was mutilated or not.
Q. That indicates the number of warrants which you have examined ?A. In this ledger. They have all been examined, though, by Mr. Woodville, I believe.
Q. He would be able to answer in regard to the warrants !-A. Yes, sir. I selected only those where I found alterations on two or more ledgers. There are certain numbers that have not been delivered to us.
Q. Take this statement which you have prepared from ledger No. 2. How many entries in all in that ledger did you look over ?-A. I took ledger No. 2 from the office of the Secretary, and compared the other two ledgers with the scratches found on that book.
Q. Had you the book before you l-A. Yes, sir; all three books.
Q. Among how many entries in all was it that you found this number that were erased !-A. I could not say.
Q. Did this number constitute one-half of all the entries in the books ?— A. No, sir.
Q. One-quarter ?-A. I cannot make an average. I have no idea of the proportion.
Q. Can you give no idea to anybody who has not seen the books ? -
Q. With an immense number of entries ?-A. Yes, sir.
allow me, I will look at the book. (Examining appropriation ledger No. 2.1 I find fifty lines on a page.
Q. How many pages in that ledger?-A. The last account seems to be on page 540.
Q. How many lines would that make ?-A. At the same time there are a number of blank leaves between. From folio 410 to 499 the pages are blank.
Q. About how many pages of that ledger contain entries ?-A. I should say about 400.
Q. About 400 pages of the ledger and about 50 lines on a page ?-A. Fifty lines to the page would not apply to every account, for some are entirely blank on the credit side, and some pages have only one entry to an account.
Q. If these 400 pages were full, there would be how many entries A. Four hundred times 50 would be 20,000.
Q. So, out of this ledger No. 2, how many entries have you transcribed on your table from the book ?-A. Three hundred and seventeen.
Q. Have you found in any instance where you have examined the warrants, that either a warrant covering in or a warrant paying out money now differs from the entry as it stands on the book -A. Not as it stands at the present time.
Q. As the entry stands in the book at the present time, the warrant covering in or the warrant paying out agrees with it, so far as you have examined ?-A. They agree.
Q. You have found no discrepancy in that respect !-A. None.
Q. The Receipts and Expenditures are published every year, are they not ?-A. They are.
Q. Have you compared these warrants with the published Receipts and Expenditures ?-A. I have not.
Q. You do not know whether they are accurately published as the warrants justify -A. I have made no examination of that.
Q. How many books besides this ledger No. 2, which you have taken as an example, did you examine -A. With a view to this particular branch of erasures, I examined eight besides this one.
Q. Nine in all-A. Yes, sir; with a view to this point.
Q. Are they, in general, books of the same nature with this ledger No. 2 ?-A. Yes, sir; they are. Q. And in general about the same size -A. Some larger. Q. Any smaller ?-A. I think none are smaller.
Q. Are they generally as full of entries as this ledger No. 21-A. I should think so.
Q. You think ledger No. 2 is generally a fair specimen of the size of the books, and of the number of entries in them of all the nine -A. It is not quite so large as some of them.'
Q. Some of them are even larger than this, and you do not think any are smaller ?-A. I do not think any are smaller.
Q. Are those that are larger considerably larger?-A. Several hun. dred pages larger, some of them.
Q. And going through these nine books you have noted, in the man. ner you have noted in this ledger No. 2, how many erasures and apparent alterations in all there are 1-A. Yes, sir; I have the number stated on the table I have prepared. The total in nine ledgers is 2,527.
Q. And so in respect to this whole number, so far as you have examined, you have found no discrepancy between the figures as they now exist and the warrants covering in or paying out?-A. No difference as the figures now appear.
By Mr. BECK: Q. How many pages of writing are in this ledger No. 2, from beginning to end ?-A. Five hundred and forty in the last account.
Q. But from 312 to 500 the pages are all blank, with the exception of two or three l-A. Yes, sir. If you want an accurate statement, I will count each page.
Q. O, no. From 312 to 500, with the exception of two or three pages, the pages are all blank; is that the fact 1-A. That is the fact as I see after making a further examination. I counted before from the entry on page 410, not having closely examined the preceding pages.
Q. And in the space from folio 1 to 312 are there not a good many other blanks ?-1. There are some scattered through.
Q. Is it not the fact that there are perhaps less than 300 pages in all on which there is any writing, when you come to look at the number of blanks -A. Since this further examination I am satisfied there are not much over 250 full pages. Q. And on a number of those only two or three entries ?-A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. DAWES : Q. Be kind enough to give us the exact number of pages ?-A. I will examine, and do so.
By Mr. BECK:
By Mr. DAWES: Q. Take the largest book of your nine and tell us something about that.-A. I will do so.
The witness was relieved for the present, but subsequently recalled, and his examination continued as follows:
By the CHAIRMAN : . Q. In selecting the particular book, appropriation ledger No. 2, did you select the ledger that had the most erasures upon it or not?-A. No, sir.
Q. Did you select a ledger that has many more erasures on it than that, and did not the Chairinan suggest to you to take an average ledger instead of the worst one!-A. He did.
By Mr. DAWES: Q. You have gone through two of the books and counted the number of pages. In the nine books, if you take the two extremes, what would be the average number of pages written on ?-A. Four hundred and two pages. Taking these two amounts, 508 pages for the larger and 296 for the smaller one, the writing would make an average in the nine ledgers of 402, and an aggregate of 3,618.
Q. Thirty six hundred and eighteen pages of fifty lines in a page ?A. Not all full pages. A great many have only one entry on a page.
Q. Are there not a great many of these pages on which there are seventy entries on a page?-A. Yes, sir; a great many pages where the debit is carried over to the credit side. The majority of the pages, however, are not full; a great many contain only one entry.
Q. Do not the majority of the pages contain double entries in the sense in which I have stated ?-A. I cannot say the majority of pages. books contain with but one entry on a line ?-A. 180,900, counting each page as full.
Q. Should you think so!-A. A great many contain entries on both sides. Q. If the number of pages were full, how many entries would all the
Q. Does that take into account any of the double entries on the same page?-A. No, sir.
O. Nor does it take into account any of the blank spaces !-A. No, sir; making that average it would not.
WILLIAM WOODVILLE recalled:
By the CHAIRMAN: Q. Have you made a copy of the warrant No. 919, of 1869?-A. Yes, sir; this is it (producing a paper).
Q. Is that a true copy of the original warrant?-A. I am not prepared to say. Mr. Gentry and myself are going to compare it and hand it to the reporter to-morrow, and then we shall testify that it is a true copy.
Q. Did you make it for a true copy?-A. I did make it for a true copy and have copied it carefully, but I have not yet compared it with the original; I will do it; it is intended to be a true copy.
By Mr. DAWES : Q. If you find in comparing your copy with the original that you have made a wrong entry of a word, you will erase it and put in the right word ?-A. Yes, sir; in the copy.
Q. With the intention, of course, of making it right?-A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever done that in preparing papers ?-A. Yes, sir; when I have made a mistake of course I have done it.
Q. You are a bookkeeper, are you not ?-A. Yes, sir; I have been.
Q. In your entries in books has it been your misfortune ever to get a wrong word or a wrong figure ?-A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you do with the book then ?-A. I scratched it.
Q. For the purpose of making it what it should have been ?-A. A bookkeeper unavoidably sometimes will make a transposition of figures.
Q. And you scratch out what has been put down for the purpose of making it what you intended to make it when you made the entry ?-A.. Yes, sir.
By Mr. BECK: Q. State what there is on the paper you hand in as a copy, if any. thing, in addition to what appears in the original warrant ?-A. Nothing, but the red-ink memoranda. The body of it is exactly as it appears in the original.
Q. You have added in red ink the comments on your copy !-A. Yes, sir.
Q. They are not made part of your copy, but are explanatory -A. Yes, sir; when I said it was a true copy I did not mean to say that the marginal notes are in the original.
The CHAIRMAN. I directed the witness to note where there were apparent alterations. Mr. BECK. We understand it.
By the CHAIRMAN: Q. Have you prepared certain statements for the committee -A. Yes, sir; I have them here numbered.
The CHAIRMAN. These are certain statements prepared by the com