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The next is a Comparison of the Register's Statements with the Secre. tary's Monthly Debt Statements of the Outstanding Public Debt for the fiscal years 1869 and 1870, marked “No. 6 C,” viz:
Comparison of Register's Statements with Secretary's Monthly Debt Statements of the out
standing Public Debt for the fiscal years 1869 and 1870.
1869. Outstanding public debt, 1869: Register's statement, Finance Report, 1869, p. 317.....
............. $2, 489, 002, 480 58 Register's statement, Finance Report, 1871, p. 369...
2, 588, 452, 213 94 Difference or increase in Finance Report, 1871...........
99, 449, 733 36 Register's statement, Finance Report, 1869.
2, 489, 002, 480 58 Add-from Secretary's monthly debt statement, July 1, 1869 Cash in Treasury .......
.......... $147, 300, 531 51 Less accrued interest ...
.......... 47, 447, 310 79
99, 853, 220 72 * Secretary's monthly debt statement, July 1, 1869, less sinking-fund ............... 2, 588, 855, 701 30 Register's statement, Finance Report, 1871 ..........
....... 2,588, 452, 213 94 Difference or increase in Secretary's monthly debt statement ............ 403, 487 36 Cash in the Treasury July 1, 1869:
Secretary's and Register's statements to committee and Register's statement, Finance Report, 1869
155, 680, 340 85 Secretary's monthly debt statement, July 1, 1869 ...
147, 300, 531 51 Difference or decrease in Secretary's monthly debt statement, July 1, 1869.. 8, 379, 809 34
Outstanding public debt, 1870:
........ $2,386, 358, 599 74 Register's statement, Finance Report, 1871, p. 375...
2, 480, 672, 427 81 Difference or increase in Finance Report, 1871...........
94, 313, 828 07 Register's statement, Finance Report, 1870 ....
............. 2, 386, 358, 599 74 Add-from Secretary's monthly debt statement, July 1, 1870— Cash in Treasury ....
.............. $141, 721, 116 07 Less accrued interest ...
..... 50, 607, 556 52
91, 113, 550 55 Secretary's monthly debt statement, July 1, 1870, less sinking-fund and special bond purchases.
2, 477, 472, 159 29 Register's statement, Finance Report, 1870 ....
2, 480, 672, 42781 Difference or decrease in Secretary's monthly debt statement, July 1, 1870.. 3, 200, 268 53 Cash in the Treasury July 1, 1870: Secretary's statement to committee and in Finance Report, 187
149, 502, 471 60 Secretary's monthly debt statement, July 1, 1870 ................. ........ 141, 721, 116 07
Difference or decrease in Secretary's monthly debt statement, July 1, 1870 .. 7,781, 355 53
Q. Did you prepare the statement, headed “ Prepared by the Senate Committee on Treasury Accounts”?-A. I made up five of them.
Q. Did you go over the figures carefully to know that they are true transcripts from the books of the department ?-A. Yes, sir; from the Finance Reports.
Q. Did you prepare the interest statement which you did not make, and see whether that was correct?-A. Yes, sir; from those standpoints.
By Mr. INGALLS: Q. By whom were these tables prepared which you have offered in evidence ?-A. I prepared them.
Q. At whose request ?-A. At the request of the chairman of the committee.
Q. From what were they prepared ?-A. Prepared from statements furnished the committee and statements in the Finance Reports.
Q. What were you directed by the chairman to do -A. To make comparisons of these statements as I found them—just the figures as I found them.
Q. In what?-A. The Finance reports and the statements furnished the committee.
Q. Did the chairman tell you what reports to examine and what fig. ures to incorporate and what tables to make ?-A. Yes, sir.
Q. State just what he told you to do.-A. He told me to compare the two reports as I found them.
Q. What two reports ?-A. To take the statement in the Finance Report of 1869 and compare it with the Finance Report of 1870.
Q. Was that all ?-A. That was all.
Q. Is that all he told you in regard to the papers you have presented here ?-A. And then to compare the statements; and you will find all the authorities here given for these statements.
Q. Then these statements that you present are not official; they are statements that you have prepared in your own way and in your own manner from official documents that have been issued from different departments of the government ?-A. I give my authority where I find these figures. I did not make up any figures.
Q. This is a personal tabulation that you have made from the different reports issued by officers of the government ?-A. I do not understand what is meant by “personal.” It is not personal at all. I take things just as I find them. I take them from the official documents.
Q. These are not official documents; these are what you have taken from official documents ?-A. Yes, sir; not in my charge, but I got them.
By the CHAIRMAN: Q. I understood you to say they were true transcripts from the Finance reports and from the statements furnished officially to the committee ?A. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. If they were not they ought to be, for such were the instructions.
By Mr. INGALLS: Q. What was the reason the official reports were not offered in evi.. dence? Why were you instructed to prepare statements from the official records, instead of having them offered in evidence !-A. They are in evidence. The Finance Reports are the official records in one case, and statements furnished the committee go in numbered there as I have just given them.
Q. What was the reason that you were directed to prepare these tables instead of having the official reports submitted to the committee ?-A. There were certain discrepancies shown to exist in the Finance reports of 1869 and 1870, and I was ordered to
Q. Did not the official reports show the discrepancies ?-A. The only official reports I know that showed those discrepancies were the reports submitted by the Finance committee.
Q. Why was not that submitted to this committee? Why do you submit a statement of your own, instead of offering the Finance Report and the report of that committee with it ?-A. I do not present any statement of my own. It is only a comparative statement of my own. I am merely employing official figures from the same stand-point. I am not using any figures of my own.
Q. Have you in any way changed the order?—A. I have not changed a thing.
Q. Have you changed the order in which these figures appear in the official reports that were submitted to you !-A. No, sir; I did not change anything.
Q. Did the chairman of the committee give you the reports that you were to compare -A. He told me to take these statements.
Q. What statements !--A. The Finance Reports of 1869 and 1870, and where they did not agree to make a statement of them.
Q. Then you have made a statement of differences that exist there, nothing but differences!—A. Exactly.
Q. As they appeared to you ?-A. As they appeared to anybody.
Q. As they appeared to you? I am not asking about anything else.A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. WHYTE: Q. As I understand you, for the convenience of the committee and to furnish in a compact form these discrepancies, you were directed to make these statements ?-A. Exactly.
Q. That was the sole objectI-A. Exactly.
Q. You have grouped the figures together to relieve the committee from the necessity of going over all that labor themselves ?-A. Exactly.
Q. You now swear that you have used with perfect accuracy the fig. ures as you found them in the Finance Reports and in the detailed statements of the Secretary of the Treasury to this committee ?-A. Yes, sir.
JANUARY 23, 1880. JAMES GILFILLAN recalled.
By the CHAIRMAN: Question. You are Treasurer of the United States ?-Answer. Yes, sir.
Q. How long does it take on an average from the time money is paid into your office for the purchase of bonds until the certificates you send go through the Public Moneys Division up to the Loan Division of the Secretary's office, back to the Public Moneys Division, and then back to your office l-A. The certificate would go directly to the Loan Division and a list of the deposits would go to the Public Moneys Division and to the Loan Division to be checked, at least every month.
Q. Once a month ?-A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time of the month ?-A. Before the end, so that it could be covered in before the end of the month.
Q. As to a transaction taking place on the last day of the month, how long would it be before that would get around A. That probably would go over to the next month.
Q. Then I understand that once a month you compare checks ?-A. At least once a month.
Q. And if a transaction was at the close of the month it would probably go over until the next month ?-A. Yes, sir ; unless it was essential to have it go into that month's account.
Q. Can you give us the amounts of unclaimed interest up to 1860, and since 1860, in round numbers ?-A. The amount of unclaimed interest on the books at this time, which accrued prior to 1860, is $2,407.45.
Q. How much since 1860 ?-A. Since 1860 it is $87,927.31.
accounts if that was returned, after standing a certain number of years, into the Treasury, as all other appropriations are ?-A. Yes, sir; all other outstanding liabilities.
Q. How long do you think it should stand before being returned into the Treasury ?-A. Other balances and checks outstanding are turned into outstanding liabilities every three years. I suppose that would be as good a limit as any.
Q. Then it would have to go through the accounting officers as any other outstanding liability that is returned to the Treasury ?-A. Yes, sir.
Q. As it is now, the demand for it is made at your office, and it is at your discretion whether it is right or not to pay it ?-A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you give us an estimate of the accrued interest on bonds for a given year? I am not particular what year you take.-A. For the fiscal year 1879 the accrued interest deposited on account of 4 per cent. bonds was $1,720,677.21.
Q. How would that year average with the years since 1863 ?-A. That would depend on whether we were issuing a loan or not. If we were not issuing a loan there would be no deposits; if we were issuing a loan, there would be.
Q. The question is intended to cover just what has actually occurred since then.-A. I do not know. Of course it would be in a certain proportion to the amount of the loan issued. There would be no relation between any years except as to the amount.
Q. Can you give us an estimate for any other year except 1879?-A. I cannot without some data.
Q. What proportion of the bonds issued, on an average, passes through your office, and what proportion is ordered by the Secretary directly on the Loan Division !--A. Do you mean what proportion of the deposits are made here?
Q. I mean what proportion of the bonds issued, no matter upon what basis they are issued, are on deposits that pass through your office that you have the handling of ?-A. I have the figures for the 4 per cent. loan since 1877 up to December 31, 1879. I can give you those.
Q. Answer in your own way.-A. The total deposits on account of principal of the 4 per cent. loan from 1877 to December 31, 1879, were 8738,490,550. Of that amount there was deposited at the Washington office $108,146,117.76.
Q. What proportion of those bonds covering the amount of money you have named was by the certificates going from you to the Loan Division, and what proportion from the Secretary's office direct to the Loan Division !-A. The latter amount went from the Treasurer, from the Washington office.
Q. The difference between the amounts that you have named is about one to seven, is it not l-A. About that.
Q. Do I understand from that, that about one-seventh of the bonds were ordered by certificate from your office, and the balance ordered from the Secretary's office on the Loan Division ?-A. It is only a ques. tion of locality where the money was deposited.
Q. I am not asking now as to the deposit of the money. The question which I wish answered is this: First, whether or not you order a portion of the bonds on your certifiate to the Loan Division, and the Secretary orders another portion of the bonds to be issued !-A. No; all certificates go to the Loan Division, whether they are issued by the Washington office or any sub-treasurer, or any of the banks, and all the bonds are ordered in the same way from the Register.
Q. My question is how many of the orders for bonds go through your office, and how many go from the Secretary's office to the Loan Division ?-A. The smaller amounts that I have given you went through the Treasurer's office since 1877.
Q. How did the Loan Division receive orders for the balance that you did not order?-A. They had certificates from the sub-treasurers and from the banks.
Q. Directly to the Secretary or to you?-A. Sent to the Secretary, the same as mine are sent to the Secretary. There is no difference in that respect between the Washington office and any sub-treasury or bank.
Q. If I should go to your office to buy a bond to-day, you would give me a certificate on the Loan Division, would you not? A. No, sir; I would give you a certificate of deposit.
Q. But I have to take that to the Loan Division ?-A. We would send it there, giving you a duplicate, and sending the original to the Loan Division.
Q. If I was in New York, and wanted to buy a bond from the govern. ment, would the order for that bond pass through your office at all, or would it go directly to the Secretary's office ?-A. It would go directly to the Secretary, and you would get the duplicate in the same way, and the assistant treasurer at New York would transmit the original to the Secretary.
Q. Then I understand that all certificates other than for bonds ordered here at your office go to the Secretary, and he directs the Loan Division to issue the bonds as ordered !-A. What I mean by the Secretary is that they would all go to the Loan Division like other deposits made in my office or in New York.
Q. Take the First National Bank and the bonds they subscribed for and ordered. When they wanted the delivery of the bonds, would they go through your office or through the Secretary's office!-A. Through the Secretary's office.
Q. And all bonds, whether subscribed for by a national bank or any other bank, would go through the Secretary's office and not through your office ?-A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that is about as one is to seven ?-A. Yes, sir; that is the proportion on the 4 per cent. loan.
Q. Is that a fairaverage of all the loans ?-A. That depends altogether on the manner in which a loan is put out. • Q. But I am asking what would be a fair average ?-A. I cannot say as to that.
Q. You cannot say positively, but you can say whether that was so?A. I have no information on the subject.
Q. Can you tell us what amount of bonds have been issued under each loau, and what have been redeemed; or is not that in your office :-A. That is not in my province. It is given in every finance report of the Secretary.
Q. The bonds that are ordered through the Secretary's office you have no connection with whatever; you never see the bonds or give any direction about them!-A. No, sir.
Q. You finally receive the money for them, I suppose, but you know nothing of when they were issued until you get notice of the money being deposited ?-A. Except in the case of deposits here in town, where the delivery was to be made at the counter, the Register would send the bonds when issued back to my office to be delivered there ; but that was only a small amount.