Q. And when that is done the bond is delivered to the person entitled to it?-A. That does not complete it. That bond then comes to our division, and there we make a permanent and independent record from anything that has been before.

Q. Then there are two permanent records in your office of the transaction-A. Yes, sir.

Q. And when that record has been made the bond is ready for delivery? A. Yes, sir; when I have put the seal and the initials on it. Q. The bond is then ready to be delivered to Emily Stearns?—It is returned to the Register for delivery to Emily Stearns.

Q. Is there a further memorandum made of the sending forward of that bond to the Register?-A. He obtains a receipt for it.

Q. And that also is filed in your office?-A. Filed with the Register. Q. And when that has all been done, the bond is then ready for delivery to the person entitled to it ?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Let me ask you further in regard to the Division of Public Moneys. You said there was some method in which this transaction would also appear there. State clearly what that is.-A. A statement of the issue of certificate by the Treasurer is reported by him to the Secretary's of fice, the Division of Public Moneys.

Q. When is that reported, then?-A. I think it is on the same day. Q. Simultaneously-A. I think so; I am not so certain of that, whether it is made daily or weekly, but I think daily.

Q. Are you able to state whether there is also a permanent record of the transaction made upon this report from the Treasurer in the Division of Public Moneys?-A. I think there is, but I am not certain. I do not think I have been over it.

Q. Now, taking the case of Emily Stearns, in order to have secured the successful issue of $20,000 of bonds, we will suppose for illustration, upon her deposit of $15,000 in money, and to escape detection, would it not have been necessary to have secured the corrupt, simultaneous collusion of men in each one of these four departments of the Treasury, including the knowledge of a large number of clerks and subordinates? -A. Yes, sir.

Q. So that the honesty of the issue of a bond does not depend upon the integrity of any single official of the Treasury Department?-A. No, sir; not to have everything appear right.

Q. I am talking about the accomplishment of a successful fraud on the government.-A. It would not.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Q. What do you mean by everything appearing right? Is it the bonds appearing right or the books appearing right?—A. The entries all appearing right, and the bonds going out so that the fraud could not be detected.

By Mr. INGALLS:

Q. To secure the successful issue of a fraudulent bond the entries must all be the same, must they not; because the moment you begin to compare the accounts of these different offices the discrepancy will appear, the attention of the officials will be directed to that, search will be made, and then, of course, the occasion of the discrepancy would appear, would it not?-A. Certainly.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Q. Describe now, as closely as you can, the manner in which a bond is issued and everybody's hands through whom it passes before it is de

livered to the subscriber. If I want to buy a bond for a thousand dol- · lars to-day how would I have to do, and when should I get the bond in my hands after making a deposit at the Treasurer's office?-A. He would issue a certificate, send that to the Secretary's office, and on that we should issue our certificate or order on the Register, who would prepare the bond upon that. Having prepared it, he would deliver it to the Loan Division of the Secretary's office for the impression of the seal and the initialing and record. Then it would go back to the Register's Office for delivery.

Q. Then if I apply to-day to the Treasurer for a thousand dollar bond the certificate would go to your office, the Loan Division, and an order would go from there to the Register to issue a bond, and it would be issued and come back to your office again for the seal?-A. For examination and the seal, to see that it agreed with our directions.

Q. Then you would send it to the Register again for delivery ?—A. Yes, sir.

Q. No other person sees the bond legally?—A. Of course there are a number of persons in each office who see it.

Q. That is the full description of applying for the delivery of a bond?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then it passes through no office but yours and the Register's?—A. Those are all.

Q. I understood you to say that the Public Moneys Division and yours made comparisons as often as once a month?-A. There is not any absolute time, but we compare frequently.

Q. At your your own option?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. These comparisons are not made under law or general instructions, but at such times as you may think best to make them?-A. Yes, sir. Q. When they are made, is it not the custom to take the aggregates between the dates, and when you make up the aggregate for your office, and the Treasurer makes up his aggregate, and the Public Moneys Division their aggregate, if these aggregates agree, do you go any further?-A. We check by items.

Q. On what?-A. On the reports furnished us.

Q. Do they furnish you all the items?--A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who furnishes you all the items?-A. They come to my division from the Public Moneys Division.

Q. What items?—A. Each certificate has one item for principal, and one item for interest.

Q. Do you keep an account of principal and interest?-A. So far as this loan is concerned.

Q. Then you can tell me how much accrued interest has been received.-A. How much we have received?

Q. You have not received any money?-A. How much accrued interest has been paid in; we can tell that.

Q. Do you keep an account of the accrued interest?-A. Yes, sir. Q. I understood you a short time ago to say that you did not.— A. We only keep it to see that each item is correct.

Q. Can you tell this day how much accrued interest on bonds has been paid into the Treasurer's office in the last five years?—A. I do not think that we can, all of it.

Q. I understand, when your comparisons are made, if the aggregates are correct, you accept them with one another throughout. Is that the way, or not?-A. No, sir; we check the individual items, and I suppose that the warrants show what is interest and what principal. We check

the items, but do not keep an account of the warrants, or of the statement that goes with each warrant.

Q. The Treasurer here probably does not receive one-twentieth part of the subscriptions, which are mainly in New York. Do you check them?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. How?-A. In the same manner.

Q. In what manner?-A. By items.

Q. Do they send them to you?-A. They send the certificates.

Q. The sub-treasurer at New York?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. For each bond that may be issued to A, B, C, and D, with the name of the person and the interest accrued?-A. Yes, sir; just the same as the certificate I have shown you here. We treat all the assistant treasurers the same as the Treasurer.

Q. They pass through the office of the Treasurer here?-A. The Treas urer has reports of them, but does not receive the certificates.

Q. They make duplicate reports to the Public Money office and to the Treasurer?-A. I believe they do.

By Mr. INGALLS:

Q. How long did you say you had been in this particular branch of the public service in the Treasury?-A. Fifteen years.

Q. Has there ever been to your knowledge a bond of the United States fraudulently or improperly issued?-A. Not that I know of. Q. Would you have been apt to know if there had been?-A. I should.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Q. How would you know if there was a fraudulent bond out to-day? -A. We should know by the numbers. We always compare our books after we complete a loan, and see that it exactly compares with the deposits on account of the loan, and if there was an excessive amount issued we could determine it by the denominations and numbers of the bonds.

Q. If a fraudulent bond was issued, there would be no entries of it at all probably?-A. But they are numbered consecutively, and unless we could account for every number, there would be something wrong.

Q. But if I owned a bond, how would you ever see it or know anything about the number?-A. We keep a statement that shows that.

Q. How could you show it if it was fraudulent?-A. The bonds run numerically, and we know the highest number issued and the lowest number.

Q. But suppose there were duplicate numbers; what would you know about them? How could your office tell if there were duplicate numbers?-A. We should have a record of the first number, and if duplicates were issued we should detect it by examination.

Q. How ?-A. We examine carefully.

Q. You do not say, though, how you could examine them. If I am the owner of a bond fraudulently issued, I do not bring it here and show it to you.-A. The bonds of each loan are issued and numbered consecutively, and delivered upon the order of the Secretary to the Register.

Q. That is not the point. The point is that I am the owner now of a fraudulent bond. Of course there would be no entry of it if it was fraudulent.-A. I do not see how they could get it out.

Q. That is not the question. The question is, would you know if it was out, and how would you know it?-A. If a duplicate bond came in we should know whether it was genuine.

Q. Of course you would if it came in, but suppose it did not come in.

You would not know it by paying interest, because the coupons are never checked. The Treasurer pays interest on every coupon that is presented.-A. The coupons come in, and we have an account of them kept in the Register's office, and they would know about it immediately. Q. If that is so, how is it that what is known as Whittaker bonds were paid, and were out for some considerable time before some secret service officer found it out?-A. I do not know anything about them. Is that anything recent?

Q. I have forgotten the time, but about 1870, I think.-A. Perhaps you are referring to the Whittlesey bonds. That matter was very soon discovered. I can only tell what I have heard about that. I think it was before I was connected with the department, but I have seen the records. There was one page marked "not issued," the bonds having been abstracted.

By Mr. BECK:

Q. In the certificate you have handed us it appears that Emily Stearns paid the money directly to the Treasurer. Do you understand it in that way-A. Yes, sir.

Q. The Treasurer receives the money directly from the party making the application?-A. Yes, sir; or on her account.

Q. But it seems to be a direct payment?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you a bonded officer?-A. No, sir.

Q. Are there any bonded officers in the Secretary's office?—A. None of the chiefs of division that I am aware of.

Q. If Emily Stearns and yourself-supposing that case-had determined to make a fraudulent issue, to issue $30,000 instead of $15,000 upon that certificate of the Treasurer, was there any way to prevent you from issuing, and Emily Stearns from getting, $30,000 of bonds except the integrity of yourself and Stearns?-A. No, sir.

Q. The detection you think would have followed immediately?-A. I do.

Q. But the issue could have been made if you and Emily Stearns had seen fit to collude?—A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know whether the Division of Public Moneys receives from the Treasurer daily the items as received by the Treasurer, or just the aggregate received by him?-A. I said that I did not know whether they received it daily, but I think they do.

MELLEN C. HOOKER sworn and examined.

By the CHAIRMAN :

Question. Are you engaged in the Register's office of the Treasury Department-Answer. I am.

Q. What is your occupation?-A. I have charge of the Register's files.

Q. Have you charge of the general warrants of the Register's office?— A. What do you mean by "general warrants ?"

Q. I mean the warrants that come to the Treasurer's office, of moneys paid on appropriations, especially on permanent and indefinite appropriations?-A. I have charge of all appropriation warrants.

Q. Can you furnish us the permanent and indefinite appropriation warrants for 1868 and 1870 ?-A. I know nothing why I cannot. pose they are on file.

I sup

Q. Then if you will get us the permanent and indefinite appropriation warrants for 1868 and 1870, we shall be obliged to you.-A. I might say by way of explanation that I had an order for one warrant; I think it was in 1870, and I think it was an indefinite warrant, and it was not on file. If that is the one you refer to, I am not able to furnish it.

Q. Why can you not furnish it?—A. It does not appear on my files, and never has been there since I have had charge of them.

Q. How long have you had charge?-A. I think a little over two

years.

Q. (Exhibiting.) Here is a warrant for the permanent and indefinite amounts appropriated for 1869. Is that the warrant ?-A. (Examining.) It may be, but I cannot tell; I am not supposed to be conversant with all the ins and outs of these warrants. They simply apply to me for them, and I furnish them by number and date.

Q. Was that warrant furnished by you to this committee?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is the total amount of that warrant; how much does it transfer?-A. I do not know.

Q. Examine the warrant and tell us the aggregate amount the warrant is for.-A. (Examining.) There appears to be a final footing here, which is $397,945,900.96. I do not know, any further than that, what it means.

Q. What do you say to us of the corresponding warrant of June 30, 1870? Can you furnish it to us?—A. I cannot tell without referring to my files.

Q. Go to your files, and let us know as soon as you can.-A. I will. The CHAIRMAN. Here is a warrant which is offered in evidence. It is Treasury appropriation warrant, permanent and indefinite, of the 30th of June, 1869, apparently transferring all the permanent and indefinite appropriations for that year to the parties who had the expenditure of them. It is a general warrant, making that transfer, and I want to call attention to several erasures on the warrant-several changes of amounts.

The witness, MELLEN (. HOOKER, after being absent for some time, returned, and his examination was continued as follows:

Q. (By the CHAIRMAN.) What report do you make?-A. The warrants for which your memorandum calls, namely, No. 895, dated June 30, 1868, and No. 947, dated June 30, 1870, do not appear on the files, neither have they been on the files since I have been custodian of the warrants.

Q. Can you direct us to any place where we should be likely to get information connected with them?-A. I cannot.

Q. Have you made inquiry or search for them yourself?—A. I have; diligent search.

Q. What has been the result?—A. Diligent search on my part has failed to reveal their whereabouts; search made as soon as I ascertained that they were gone.

Q. How long is it since you have known that they were gone?—A. A little over two years.

Q. Have you made search diligently at intervals since ?-A. No; I have not.

Q. Have you informed the Register of their absence?-A. I have. Q. Do you know any place or anybody to whom we could apply that could give us further information about them?—A. I do not.

Q. Do you know what those warrants are?-A. I do not. I never saw them.