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By the CHAIRMAN : Q. And your numbers keep on regularly ?-A. Yes, sir; we issue them in numerical order.

Q. No matter what you redeem ?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do your amounts that you put in circulation always exactly agree with those you take up 1-A. Yes, sir.

Q. What becomes of a note from the time you consider it unfit for use until its final destruction ! -A. The money for redemption is first counted, then it is canceled, then cut in two parts by packages, if it is United States notes, lengthwise; one half of the package is sent to the Secretary's office, the other half to the Register's office, and they count the halves. If their counting of the halves agrees with the Treasurer's count of the whole notes, it is certified to a committee which puts it into the macerator and destroys it.

Q. How long has the present system existing between yourself and the Printing Bureau and this mode of destruction been in existence ?-A. This has been the system from the beginning, as to the destruction, and the system with the Printing Bureau since the establishment of the bureau.

By Mr. DAWES: Q. How often are your books balanced up? What method have you of determining the accuracy of the bookkeeping in your office?-A. The office is really two-fold, one having the same function as a sub-treasury; that is the local office, which keeps the account of the receipts and payments at this point; and the other the general cash account of the government with the sub-treasuries and the depository banks.

Q. Take the general supervisions of your office, without regard to its sub-treasury functions, and state briefly what test you apply to your books, and when they are balanced !-A. The general account of the office is this: We keep an account with every sub-treasury and every depository. We get a transcript from them, either daily or weekly, to verify their reports of their cash with our books; with the national banks, every week, when they render their transcripts; with the assistant treasurers, every day, when they render theirs.

Q. With what books in the other bureaus or divisions of the Treasury Department are they compared ?-A. We render a quarterly account of drafts issued and paid.

Q. In the nature of a trial balance as between you and them I-A. Yes, sir; the account is in the name of the United States in account with the Treasurer. The United States is credited with the balance from the last quarter, and with all the receipts during the quarter, and is charged with all the payments during the quarter. That goes to the First Auditor, who keeps a similar account; to the Comptroller, who really settles it, who certifies to it; and to the Register, by whom the books are kept.

Q. Then once a quarter the test of accuracy is applied to your books and the Register's, the Comptroller's, and the Auditor's ?-A. Yes, sir; at any rate the Register, Comptroller, and Treasurer.

Q. Has that always been the rule?-A. I think that has been the rule from the beginning. I think that is the Hamiltonian system.

Q. After this quarterly process with the books, do you know of any figures or amounts or sum totals in those books having been altered ?A. I do not.

Q. Do you know of the existence in those books of any discrepancy between the statement of the same item in the different books after they had passed the quarter?-A. I do not know of there having been any differences or discrepancies.

Q. Have you any knowledge of the preparation of the Finance Report itself ?-A. No, sir; only that part which relates to the Treasurer's office.

Q. Do you know of any alteration of any figures in the Finance Reports that are issued yearly after they had gone out of the office !-A. I have no knowledge of any.

Q. Do you know of the fact that there exists in any one of those reports any difference or discrepancy in the statement of the same items? -A. I do not.

By the CHAIRMAN: Q. Could you make me a similar statement to the one I hand you from the books in your office to show whether your books agree with the Secretary's ?-A. Not, I think, as to items.

Q. Could you tabulate it as that is tabulated ?-A. I could not without going over the books, and for that period I could not at all. I could arrange the books so that it could be given for the time to come, but not for the dates there covered.

Q. Your books are not kept so that you could tabulate your statements as the Secretary has done in his Finance Report of which that table I have shown you is a copy ?-A. I think not.

I wish to add that many of these questions I could have answered better if I had an opportunity to refer to my books.

Q. Do you mean by that that you have stated any fact that you are not sure of ?-A. No, I do not mean that; but I could explain more in detail and more explicitly by reference to the books in some cases.

Q. We understand from you that when you issue a certificate of A having deposited money with you for a bond of a given amount, you yourself do not know whether the bond is issued for the exact amount that you give the certificate or not? You never see the certificate again, or see the bond ?-A. Not necessarily. There are some cases of delivery in this city where the bonds are sent to the receiving tellers to be deliv. ered; but if the deposit is by persons out of the city, they are sent direct from the other branches of the department.

As to the checks on the Printing Bureau, I only made a general statement.


By the CHAIRMAN: Question. By whom was the statement that I hand you prepared ! (Exhibiting.)-Answer. Prepared by Mr. Byrne, formerly a clerk of this committee.

Q. Have you examined it by the books so as to be able yourself to testify to it!-A. Yes, sir; I can testify to this statement. I went over it with him and checked it off with him from the other book.

Q. Have you recently re-examined it ?-A. Yes, sir; I have refreshed my memory about it to-day.

Q. Is it correct ?-A. It is correct, with the exception of a few memo. randa which are marked there; two exceptions which I have specified on it.

The CHAIRMAN. I offer that in evidence, as liaving been the result of the work of Messrs. Woodville and Byrne together, and want it to go in.

Memorandum of erasures, aleerations, and changes found in Register of Public Debt Tar

rantsfrom January 1, 1865, to December 31, 1869. Secretary of the Treasury.




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Memorandum of erasures, alterations, changes, 8c.—Continued.

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Washington, D. C., November 22, 1878. SENATOR: I make, at your request, a copy from my “memorandum-book of alterations and erasures,” from a book called “Register of Public Debt Warrants."

In my examination of the books furnished the committee by the Secretary of the Treasury, I have thus far noted 1,120 alterations and changes in the 39 books I have examined. Most respectfully, your obedient servant,


Chairman, fc.

Q. Have you made examinations of different books in the Secretary's, the Register's, and the Treasurer's offices 1-A. My examination was particularly in the Register's and Treasurer's books, and the public debt ledger of the Secretary from 1860 to 1871 inclusive.

Q. Did you find upon those books alterations or errors or erasures in figures 1-A. Yes, sir; I found alterations, scratches, canceled warrants.

Q. To what extent ?-A. In the Treasurer's books from 1860 to 1867, inclusive, the alterations, scratches, and canceled warrants amounted to about twelve hundred in round numbers.

Q. Twelve hundred different alterations ?-A. Alterations, scratches, and canceled warrants, anything like a change from the original amount.

Q. Just explain generally what you found upon the books in regard to erasures or alterations of figures ?-A. Amounts scratched and new figures substituted.

Q. State the number of books and the different offices you examined.A. The Treasurer's general ledgers, and the redemption of the public

debt ledgers of the Secretary and the Register; the appropriation ledg. ers, as they call them.

Q. What is the gross number in the books that you discovered yourself ?-A. There were from forty to fifty in the redemption of the public debt ledger of the Register.

Q. How many in the Secretary's ?-A. That I went over with Mr. Byrne; I think there are about three hundred.

Q. Are the amounts large or small ?-A. They vary. Some of the appropriation amounts were enormous. They were scratched.

Q. What do you mean by enormous ?-A. $130,000,000 or $13,000,000. It depends upon the particular appropriation.

Q. State what you mean by scratched. Were the figures scratched and new ones substituted I-A. I mean to say that an alteration in an item had been made. Of course it looked as if the old amount was wrong, and it had been scratched out and a new amount substituted.

Q. Some of these amounts were large?-A. Some were in the appropriations and some in expenditures on account of the public debt. They are closed up by what they call an appropriation warrant for the total amount after a given time, and those amounts would be very large. Some of them were scratched.

Q. Have you a memorandum of them as you took them off the books! A. Yes, sir.

Q. You can refer to that at any time?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know whether Mr. Byrne, who was associated with you, examined the Secretary's books, and whether he found any alterations and erasures? If so, how many ?-A. That I cannot tell. I know I looked with him: I did not keep an account of his, but he called my attention to them, and the appropriation ledgers in that period, from 1860 to 1870, inclusive, indicated a great many scratches and alterations; that is, amounts had been altered in the various appropriation items.

Q. Do you know of any leaves being entirely out of the books that appeared to have been cut out?-A. Yes, sir. In the beginning of the war some of the Treasurer's accounts are that way; about 1861 and 1862.

Q. In how many instances ?-A. Two-four leaves in one case, and five in the other. I can produce the books, if you wish.

Q. Can you approximate the number of alterations and erasures found by Mr. Byrne while you and he were going over the books I-A. I could not do it from his accounts.

Q. Can you approximate to the number?--A. No, sir. There are a great many, I know.

By Jr. DAWES: Q. Do you know in reference to any of them, when they were made :A. No, sir.

Q. Or by whom they were made ?-A. No, sir; I cannot tell.

Q. Do you know in reference to any one of them, what it was altered from ?-A. No, sir. I speak of it just as it appears on the books.

Q. How does it appear on the book, “ January 3, 1865, warrant Yo. 1737, amount altered and scratched"?-A. It is just that way. The old amount has been scratched out and a new amount substituted.

Q. The paper scratched, you should judge?-A. Yes, sir; I examined it carefully; held the paper up to the light to see if it had been scraped.

Q. What figures were substituted for what figures you do not know? —A. I could not tell that.

Q. But the figures as they stand there now are $11,981.56 ?-A. Yes,


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