tion of the books in the Register's office, another set of books, by which it was ascertained that the report in the Secretary's office was the correct one. I have stated that one reason why the books kept by the two offices did not agree was, that one was kept by "issues and redemptions,” and the other by "receipts and expenditures" which would cover all redemptions. Another subject of difference was the trust funds belonging to the government. They were sometimes put in the public debt, and sometimes omitted.

By Mr. ALLISON:

Q. Such as Indian funds, do you mean?—A. Indian funds, Smithsonian funds, and the naval pension fund. I was told that those items make up a portion of the difference.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Q. I understand you to state that the main difference is in the manner of stating the accounts by issues and redemptions in your office?— A. So I understand. The difference is between stating the account by "issues and redemptions" alone, and stating it by "receipts and expenditures" on account of the public debt. By issues and redemptions you get no premiums or discounts-no interest account.

Q. I understand that in 1870 you changed the manner of stating the account which had been kept from the organization of the government, or the mode of keeping the books in the office?-A. I cannot learn that any change was actually made, although I came across a report the other day of Mr. Allison, directed to the Secretary, in which he said he had ordered some change to be made. I will get that for you; not a change in the method of keeping the books that they had already, but that he had opened a new set. I have inquired of some of my clerks, and they say they do not know anything about that. I happened to see that in his report.

Q. The two tables I have exhibited to you show that there were changes from 1833 to 1870, inclusive. Both cannot be correct if taken from the books, because there were great differences between them; seventy-five millions, ninety-nine millions, and ninety-four millions a year, sometimes; sometimes very small amounts.-A. I think those large amounts were made in the way I stated to you. The debt was made a good deal smaller in the Register's report than it really was, by improperly deducting the cash in the treasury for the two years I have named.

Q. But there were changes for thirty-five years. Various Secretaries had reported for thirty-five years the outstanding public debt at given amounts, and it had been so reported from your office each year for the time named; but in 1870 there appears to have been a general change back for thirty-five years; the changes are large and small, sometimes a decrease, sometimes an increase; therefore the way of stating the redemptions and issues could not affect it both ways, sometimes a credit and sometimes a debit. Have you any special explanation on that point?-A. That, according to my understanding, is exactly what it would do. If the Treasurer received a subscription so near the close of a fiscal year that it did not appear on the books of the Register until the following year, the Treasurer's book would show an increase of the debt, while the Register's would not. So, if a redemption of bonds was made by the Secretary so late in the fiscal year that it did not get on the Register's books until the following year, the Secretary's books for that year would show a decrease of the debt, while the Register's would not. So that a statement of the public debt, made up, solely, from the "issue

and redemption" account in the Register's office, would show the debt too large in some years and too small in others. In cases where certificates of indebtedness are issued without corresponding receipts in the Treasury, the amount could be accurately ascertained from the "issue" account in the Register's office.

By Mr. ALLISON :

Q. What do you mean by saying there were no receipts?-A. There was no money covered into the Treasury. I refer to cases where bonds are issued by authority of Congress, and no money is paid into the Treasury in exchange for them. The Oregon war loan is an instance. Bonds were issued to quite a large amount, but no money was received for them.

Q. It was to pay an existing debt, and nothing came into the Treasury in lieu of it?-A. Yes, sir. I think the Texas indemnity bonds were in the same way.

By the CHAIRMAN :

Q. Had Register Allison additional papers that he kept with that letter?—A. I have never seen any other. I thought until I came to get this a short time ago, after you mentioned it to me, that it was from the Secretary himself, not from the chief clerk.

Q. Do you consider that as the act of the Secretary?—A. Yes, sir.. I understand from those in my office that Mr. Allison took this order to the Secretary after he received it, showed it to him, and the Secretary informed him that it was to be obeyed. There is nothing on record to show that, but I understand it from some of the clerks.

Q. Do I understand you to state that you saw no additional papers with that order in your office that were kept by Register Allison?-A. I have never seen any other. I think you were there when I first knew anything about it. My assistant came in and found it in my drawer. I had the impression on my mind that it was from the Secretary, but when I came to look at it I found it was from the chief clerk.

Q. But you considered it the act of the Secretary?-A. Certainly. Q. You would to-day in your office?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. My recollection is that there were other papers connected with that when you and I looked; have you examined to see whether there were other papers left by the former Register?-A. I did not examine particularly. There were very few things in the drawer. There were two envelopes; one contained a copy, and the other the original. The envelope was marked on the outside "Two copies," but there was only one in it. The original was in a separate envelope, but they were fastened together by a string.

By Mr. ALLISON :

Q. Are the accounts of receipts and expenditures kept in the Register's office as well as in the office of the Secretary?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. All receipts from loans and all expenditures in redemption of loans are kept in a division of your office as well as in the office of the Secretary of the Treasury?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. As I understand you, the tabulated statement of the public debt, as made up in the Secretary's office in 1870 and 1871, was made up from the accounts of receipts and expenditures?-A. I suppose it was, but I will not undertake to say that nothing else was considered. I think other matters were taken into account, but I understand that the main difference between the tabulated statement made in the Register's office and that made in the Secretary's office originated in this fact, that one

was made from "issues and redemptions" and the other from "receipts and expenditures" accounts, and the trust-funds to which I have referred. Q. The order of Mr. Saville, chief clerk, directed the Register to make up his tabulated statement in the form as made up in the Secretary's office. Could or could not such a statement in the form prescribed be made up in the main from the accounts of receipts and expenditures in your office?-A. I suppose it could.

Q. You keep an account of issues and redemptions. Now, in your account of issues of bonds they are charged at their face value, of course! -A. Yes.

Q. If bonds are redeemed, are they also put down at their face value on this book?-A. Yes, sir. The issue and redemption account would show that there was so much indebtedness outstanding unpaid, but it would not show exactly what it cost to create it or cost to reduce it.

Q. So that if Mr. Boutwell purchased a bond at 80 cents on the dollar when he was Secretary of the Treasury, when that bond was put upon your final books of issues and redemptions it would go down at par?— A. Yes, sir.

Q. Having charged it as par you would put it on the book as redeemed at par?-A. Yes, sir; but there would be another account of the premium or discount.

Q. In the Finance Report of 1870, page 276, the Register reports the debt of the United States on July 1, 1869, at $2,489,002,480.58, and in the Finance Report of 1871, pages 368 and 369, the Register reports the debt of the United States on July 1, 1869, at $2,588,452,213.94, making a difference of $99,449,723.36. Were the original entries, or any of them, which had been made on the books of the Register of the Treasury from which the statement of the public debt published in the Finance Report for 1870, page 276, was made up, changed so as to make the fact to appear that the last amount stated in the Finance Report for 1871, page 369, was the true one? If the change was made, state by what authority it was made. If no change in the original entries was made, had the Register any data on his books to enable him to state in 1871 that the debt on the first day of July, 1869, was $99,449,723.36 more than he had stated it to be at that date when he made his report in 1870, or did the Register simply obey the order of the Secretary and conform the report of 1871 and subsequent reports to the orders of the Secretary?-A. I understand there were no changes made in the original entries on the Register's books. The principal change for that year was caused by making the statement of the public debt without deducting from it the cash in the Treasury, which had been improperly done for the last two years. In this report, after making up the statement of the debt, the officer who did it improperly deducted the amount of cash in the Treasury. I have not examined to see whether the two reports agreed after this correction was made or not. I do not know whether the Register took that statement for the years that were passed and adopted it as his own or not; but I have understood that there was a general examination of the "receipts and expenditures" accounts in the Register's office to see if they could not agree, and that there was a report made on discrepancies, and finally the report made in the Secre tary's office for the year 1871 was agreed upon as the correct one; but whether it conformed to the books in the Register's office altogether, or not, I am unable to say. The report for this year, 1878, was made from the books and records of the Register's office; and you will see on look

ing at it closely that it does not agree with the Secretary's exactly. Last year there was a little difference also. The reports are now made from our books, and the Secretary's are made from his books. The little dif ferences of two or three hundred dollars have been explained, but I cannot now recall them; I think one of $250, and the only one for that year, was where there had been a duplicate payment.

Q. The Constitution of the United States, in the 7th clause of section 9, article 1, provides that "no money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in consequence of appropriations made by law; and a regular statement and account of the receipts and expenditures of all public money shall be published from time to time," and section 313 of the Revised Statutes of the United States makes it the duty of the Register "to keep all accounts of the receipts and expenditures of the public money, and of all debts due to or from the United States." Now please state by what authority, if any, the Secretary or his chief clerk, or anybody else, could direct the Register either to change his reports or conform them to any view that the Secretary or any one else might have as to the proper mode of keeping and publishing them?-A. I suppose the Secretary has authority to prescribe the manner in which the accounts shall be kept, but I do not suppose that any Secretary has the right to alter the books of the Treasury, and I have always understood that that was never done. Q. Admitting that the Secretary had the right to prescribe rules for the future action of the Register, had he any sort of authority to give orders as to how past events should be stated, or past reports changed after they had been published and submitted to Congress under the constitutional requirement?-A. I think that would be a question which your committee ought to answer in your report.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Q. Has your report for 1877 and 1878 the usual tabulated statement as to receipts and expenditures and the public debt that you have had as far back as you know anything about?-A. It has.

Q. Has the Secretary's report a tabulated statement of the public debt and the receipts and expenditures?-A. Yes, sir; the reports will show for themselves what is in them.

Q. Are you not as Register the official bookkeeper of the government, and final enstodian of all warrants and vouchers, whatever may have been paid for any expenditure or receipt of the government?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Can any money be received into or paid out of the Treasury without a warrant going through your office?-A. Moneys are received into the Treasury by warrants and paid out on warrants, which by the act of 1789, Rev. Stat., sec. 305, must be drawn by the Secretary, countersigned by the Comptroller, and registered by the Register.

QI ask the general question whether any money can be paid out or received into the Treasury without the warrant going through your office?-A. It cannot..

Q. You keep all accounts of the government, do you not, where money, or bonds, or anything which relates to the financial condition of the government is concerned?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was the Register's office established?-A. At the beginning of the government, by the act of 1789.

Q. When was the Secretary's office as a warrant division established ? -A. The Secretary always issued the warrants, but I think the warrant division as it now exists is of recent origin.

Q. Can you give us the time?-A. I cannot, without looking it up; I think about 1870.

Q. There was such an office as the Secretary's office in legal existence in 1870, when this letter was written that the changes should be made to conform with the Secretary's office?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. The letter to Register Allison, directing the statements to be changed in accordance with those of the Secretary's office, states as a reason the confusion of debt statements in Europe, and nothing is said as to issues or redemptions, past or future. Can you give us any light on that matter?-A. He gives that as the reason why he wishes the two reports of the national debt to agree; that foreign purchasers of our debt commented upon the difference. I suppose the idea was that it had a tendency to impair our credit abroad, seeing we were getting up contradictory or loose reports.

Q. Does that letter give as a reason for changing the manner of keeping books in your office that the redemptions and issues account did not agree, or that the receipts and expenditures account did not support the reports theretofore made by your office?-A. No; the letter only speaks of the injury to the public credit in having the two reports. The two systems of bookkeeping, by which the discrepancy was supposed to have originated, was not referred to by the letter.

Q. Could redemptions and issues increase the debt one year and decrease it the following year from the statements previously made by your office?-A. The amount of receipts into the Treasury on account of a loan might be reported before we report the bonds issued, so that it would depend on the time the reports were made whether the Treasurer's report would agree with ours. Our report would show when those bonds were recorded. The Treasurer's might show when they were paid for or the moneys received. A draft drawn might not be paid for many years; but it would show on our books, because it would be recorded. When we would make a record of a draft upon the Treasury we would not know from that when it was paid. It might not be paid for a long time after.

Q. Would the Secretary's office know it?—A. The Treasurer's office would know when it was paid.

Q. How ?-A. From actual payments.

Where does the warrant come to your office from ?—A. From the warrant division of the Secretary's office.

Q. The first information you have is the warrant from the Secretary's Office?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. That being so, how could the Secretary know it was paid when it went through your office, not back to the Secretary but to the Comptroller?-A. It would go to the Comptroller before it did to us. to approve it before we record it.

He has

Q. A warrant first passes the Secretary's office before it appears in yours? A. Yes.

Q. Then a warrant would be charged there before it was charged in your office?—A. Yes; they would record it before we registered it.

Q. You are the final custodian when paid, not before?—A. Yes. Q. Then as long as that warrant is out the Treasurer could not get credit for it in your office?—A. No; he could not get credit for it in any office until he paid it.