By Mr. McDONALD:

Q. You were asked if you had given the names of certain persons whom you have named here as witnesses, as those of persons who had been influenced by being threatened with discharge by any of the corporations?-A. I named those two.

Q. You were not volunteering any testimony?—A. No, sir.

Q. When asked if you could give the names of any such persons, you gave the names of those two?-A. The reason I gave their names is because those men had told me their story.

Q. My colleague on the committee asked you if you knew of such persons and you gave the names at his request?-A. Yes, sir.

Mr. BLAIR. We have drawn out the testimony of the witness on the stand. I am not aware that we have had any other communication with him.

By Mr. McDONALD:

Q. You do not suppose that you could have found the individual in a case such as you have spoken of without inquiry?—A. I did not sup pose I could find him without I made some inquiry.

Q. You have been asked by my colleague whether these superiutendents who have charge of the mills did not really feel that it was to the interest of the mills to defeat Butler?-A. Yes, I think they did. They talked it.

Q. They talked it and probably believed it ?-A. I thought so.

Q. And they thought that the men had no business to vote the other way?-A. That was the insinuation.

Mr. BLAIR. I object to that. I do not think that that is very tangible. Let the witness state what they said.

By Mr. McDONALD:

Q. You were asked about their conduct. I ask you if you did not think it a very great outrage for them to ask the men to vote differently from what they believed on the subject?—A. I did.

Q. They thought they ought to do the thinking of the men on the subject of voting-A. Yes; and to direct them how to vote.

Q. Believing that Butler would ruin the whole country, they thought the men ought to think and vote as they thought and voted for them? -A. Yes, sir; the men were to be the machines to do just precisely as the employers thought.

Mr. BLAIR. You and Judge McDonald make out a rather fair case together.

Mr. McDONALD. A little better one than you and the witness made

out.

Mr. BLAIR. That may be because the parties having to deal with only one side are more harmonious and willing to agree.

By Mr. McDONALD:

Q. Since the employers have been believing so earnestly on that subject, the employed have very generally voted with them, have they not? -A. They have within three years.

Q. Since that belief has been so generally pressed by the employers, they have done much of the thinking for the employed, so far as the thinking has gone?-A. It had a great bearing.

Q. You say that all you ask is that the men shall be allowed to believe for themselves?-A. That is the way I understand it and look at things.

Q. And that they shall vote in freedom?—A. Certainly; according to the dictates of their own consciences.

Q. If they differ in opinion with their employers in regard to what is for the best interests of the country, they have a right to that difference of opinion?-A. I claim that they have that right; the laws of this State give them that right.

Q. Is that the way in which the right has been exercised practically since this increased energy on the part of the employers has been manifested?-A. Generally, except in the corporations; it is not so as to them.

EDWARD P. CARTER Sworn and examined.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Question. Do you live in Webster ?-Answer. I do.

Q. Were you there at the November election of 1878 ?—A. I was. Q. For whom were you active?-A. For General Butler.

Q. Did you belong to the Butler club ?-A. I did.

Q. Had you names of men there enrolled who you thought would vote for Butler ?—A. I had in my possession the names of those who I thought would vote for Butler.

Q. Do you know that any of those whom you enrolled and who you had reason to believe would vote for Butler voted against him ?—A. I do.

Q. How many?-A. There were 25 or 30 whose names I had who I calculated did not vote for General Butler, some of them; I could not say that all of them voted at all.

Q. State the cause of this, if you had knowledge of it there, pending the election?-A. There were reasons which were plain to us as managers of the club, but which it would be impossible for me to swear to.

Q. You may state what the men who were operatives in the mill stated about that to others, if they stated anything in your hearing ?— A. There was very little said to me by them, by reason of my position in the club; I did not have much communication with the operatives, and it was on that account.

Q. What was your position ?-A. I was president of the club.
Q. Were you present at the polls on election day ?-A. I was.

Q. Did you observe the action of these employers-A. Not to such an extent as did some of the witnesses who have preceded me to-day. I was in and out; the position I occupied on election day kept me mostly from the room. I could not swear positively as to what transpired in the room on election day.

Q. Was it not apparent to you when you came to count it on election day that the vote which your side had had there before had been materially reduced?—A. The vote was materially reduced from the list that I had.

Q. What was the cause of it?—A. I have given the cause as far as I know it. As I have said, I could not swear to things which I was not satisfied in my own mind did occur.

By Mr. PLATT:

Q. What is your occupation ?-A. I am a trader; I have been in trade in Webster.

Q. How long before the election was the enrollment of the members of the Butler club made?-A. The club was formed, as near as I can recollect, about the last of September or first of November.

Q. At what time was the convention at Mechanics' Hall in Worcester held-A. I do not recollect the date.

Q. About how long after that was it that the club was formed?— A. I do not know that I can give you the date. It is my impression that it was about a fortnight, though I would not state that positively.

Q. It was formed in September and the election was in November?— A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were the names obtained about the time of the formation of the club?-A. A portion of them were, and I had in my possession many names of Butler men who were not enrolled in the club. There were some men who did not wish to be enrolled in the club, but who expressed themselves favorably, that is, sympathized with us and would talk with our men whenever they met them.

Q. Do you remember that your canvass was with reference to the number of votes that you ought to have there?-A. That was the estimate that we made in regard to our votes. We thought, before the election, that our vote would be about equal to the Republican party vote. When the votes were counted General Butler had 295 and Mr. Talbot had 392. I think that Talbot's majority was 97.

Q. Is it not true, so far as your knowledge extends, that there was that year a large vote which was uncertain and doubtful, and you did not know which way it was going?-A. We expected a full vote. I do not know that I can answer the question definitely.

Q. What I mean to ask is this. People generally took open and decided positions, but were there not many men as to whom it was difficult to determine how they were going to vote?--A. I think that, in the canvass that we made in our town, we found out pretty correctly how it would stand. I judge from this. In pretty exciting elections in our town we have generally been able to estimate pretty correctly the state of the vote one way or the other, and, judging from that of last year, I should think that we did know pretty nearly how most of the men stood so far as their sentiments were concerned between the candidates.

Q. How many were on the rolls of your club?—A. As I told you be fore, there were many who were not enrolled in the club. I could not give the number of the names in my possession, but it was about 300; I think the number was a little over that, because General Butler had 295 votes, and I think I had 25 or 30 who either did not vote or who voted against him.

Q. You had then over 300 names on the private roll in your possession, the result of your canvass, and you polled up to 25 or 30 of that total? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that an unusual discrepancy?—A. I do not know that I can say it is for this reason: I have known our canvass to fall short before. Mr. PLATT. Yes, in my younger days I experienced that disappointment or mortification myself sometimes. [To the witness.] What were your duties on election day?—A. I had charge of the teams.

Q. That is, the teams that were bringing the Butler or Democratic voters to the polls?-A. Yes. Cousequently that took me outside of the voting place.

Q. Those were teams that were employed and paid for, I suppose, by the organization?-A. They were teams that I engaged and paid for.

By Mr. BLAIR:

Q. It is not an unusual thing for voters to encourage both sides with promises and then disappoint one side or the other?-A. No, sir; it is not.

J. F. BONNER sworn and examined.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Question. Where do you live?-Answer. In Webster.

Q. Did you live there last year?-A. Yes, sir.

Q For whom did you work at the time of the November election ?— A. I worked for no corporation particularly. I worked around by day's work. Before that I worked for H. M. Slater.

Q. At which mill?-A. In the East Village. I did not work inside. I worked outside, and had full charge of the outside work.

Q. Were you at the election last fall?—A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know anything about tickets being sent to the help at the last fall election ?-A. I do.

Q. State what you know about that.-A. What I know is that a Talbot ticket, sealed in an envelope, was sent to my wife's father.

Q. Did he work in the mills?—A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was his name?-A. George Audrews.

Q. In what mill did he work?-A. In the East Village-the cambric works.

Q. Did he vote it ?—A. I could not say whether he voted it or not. Q. Did he go to the election with the rest of the men ?--A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you see him at the election ?-A. I did.

Q. Who was there?-A. There was quite a number there.

Q. Was he brought up from the mill with the rest?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Was Mr. Moore, Mr. Fletcher, and Mr. Hilton there at the elec tion-A. I saw Mr. Moore and Mr. Fletcher there. I saw Mr. Hiltou, but did not see him around the polls, that is, up on the stage around the ballot-box.

Q. When were you discharged from work?-A. I was discharged in the spring before.

[NOTE. A statement by the witness at this point was subsequently excluded as not having been within the dates of the committee's inquiry.]

By the CHAIRMAN:

Q. What knowledge have you of any control of votes of employés at the Congressional or Gubernatorial election in the fall of 1878?

The WITNESS. I am going to let you know. What I know is this, that any man who labors for H. M. Slater has got to vote as he says

NOTE. The witness proceeding at further length without heeding an objection at this point by Mr. Blair, it was explained by the Chairman that the hearing of the witness was somewhat impaired.]

The CHAIRMAN. Your answer is not to the question. What do you know about anything that occurred in regard to the control of the election with special reference to the employés ?

Mr. BLAIR.-If the witness will remove his hand from his ear he will be better able to hear.

The WITNESS. You need not worry but what I can hear.
Mr. BLAIR. I made the suggestion for your own benefit.

The WITNESS. I am deaf, and you needn't take my word for it. They know me where I was born and brought up.

The CHAIRMAN (after instructing the witness to pause upon objection being made). Go on and state what happened at the election, what you saw there.

A. What I saw or what I heard?

Q. What you saw and also what you heard at the election from the

operatives in those mills.-A. I will tell you what they said. There was Edward Farrel, who works in the cambric works.

Q. What did he say ?-A. He said he would vote for Butler if he dared to, but that if he voted so he lost his work. He was a laboring man, with a small family, with nothing to depend on only his own daily labor.

Q. For whom did he vote?—A. He voted for Talbot.

Mr. BLAIR. Does the witness know? I would like to know upon what information his statement is predicated.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you know the fact that he so voted?

The WITNESS. What I know is merely from what the man told me. He told me that he voted so.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Q. What pay is that man getting?-A. Seventy-five cents a day. Q. Where is he working?-A. In the East Village, in the cambric mills.

Q. Was he working then ?-A. He was.

Q. Had he a family ?-A. He had.

Q. How many children?—A. I am not certain, but I should say four or five.

Q. Do you know who owns the house in which he lives?—A. H. M. Slater.

Q. It belonged to the corporation?—A. Certainly. No man within that territory owns anything only through him.

Q. What other man do you know who said anything?-A. There is Hugh Duffy. He said he would vote the same way if he was not afraid of being discharged.

Q. Was this before the election?—A. This was before the election last fall.

Mr. BLAIR. I raise the question whether evidence of this character is admissible at all. It would appear that the reasons alleged for their action are only such as the men gave at the time to those with whom they were dealing, and who, on the one side or the other, were urging them on.

Mr. McDONALD. The general rules of evidence apply in investigations of the character of this one, but the practice has been, in the ascertainment of certain facts, to proceed without strict conformity to the rules and methods of judicial procedure, and therefore testimony has frequently been taken which would not ordinarily be admitted in a court. In the investigations which have been made, that which the voters havę said before the election to persons with whom they were talking on the subject of the election about their fear of voting in a particular way, and the grounds of their fears, has been admitted, inasmuch as the way in which the voters would have voted in the absence of any constraint cannot be shown except as is here proposed, namely, by their admissions or statements at the time of the canvass to others with whom they talked.

Mr. BLAIR. This, then, is not put in upon any claim that it is strictly competent or legal testimony, but merely for what it is worth.

Mr. MCDONALD. The admission is simply that it is not of the charac ter of that which is admissible in a court. I know of repeated instances in which testimony has been given as to the sayings of colored men, for instance, that they would like to vote the Republican ticket, but were afraid to do so. These declarations have been admitted again and again.