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ness and forbearance; as christians we are taught (except for the most atrocious and bloody offences, and even then with sorrow) not to desire the death of a sinner, but rather that he should turn from his wickedness and live and we are particularly taught to forgive our debtors as we ourselves expect forgiveness. For these reasons it appears to me that the existing laws are wholly inoperative." There were various persons who were examined before the committee upon the same subject, all of whose opinions, expressing their disapprobation of it, will be found in the examination; and the committee on that occasion have reported that the law is injurious.

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knowledge, of bankers and opulent individuals, who, rather than take away the life of a fellowcreature, have compromised with the delinquent. Instances have occurred of a prosecutor pretending to have had his pocket picked of the forged instrument; in other cases prosecutors have destroyed, or refused to produce it, and when they have so refused, they have stated publicly that it was because the person's life was in jeopardy. I will relate a very recent circumstance, that occurred under my observation at the Old Bailey. A person, through whose hands a forged bill had passed, and whose appearance upon the trial was requisite to keep up the necessary chain of evidence, kept out of the way to prevent the conviction of the prisoner: it was a private bill of exchange. I also know another recent instance, where some private individuals, after the commitment of a prisoner, raised a thousand pounds for the purpose of satisfying some forged bills of exchange; and they declared, and I have good reason to know the fact, that if the punishment had been any thing short of death, they would not have advanced a farthing, because he was a man whose conduct had been very disgraceful; but they were friends to the man's family, and wished to spare them the mortification and disgrace of a relative being executed, and therefore stepped forward and subscribed the before-mentioned sum. I have frequently seen persons withhold their testimony, even when under the solemn obligation of an oath to speak the

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whole truth; because they were aware that their testimony, if given to its full extent, would have brought the guilt home to the parties accused; and they have therefore kept back a mate rial part of their testimony. In all capital indictments, with the exception of murder and some other heinous offences, I have often observed prosecutors show great reluctance to persevere, frequently forfeiting their recognizances; and indeed, I have, on many occasions, been consulted by prosecutors as to the consequences of refusing to conform to their recognizances, that is, to appear and prosecute the pri

soner.

When you speak of the cases of murder and other heinous offences, do you mean offences accompanied with violence to the person, or which are likely in their consequences to inflict serious injury? Certainly; those are the offences to which I allude; I know that many persons who are summoned to serve as jurymen at the Old Bailey, have the greatest disinclination to perform the duty on account of the distress that would be done to their feelings, in consigning so many of their fellow-creatures to death as they must now necessarily do, if serving throughout a session; and I have heard of some who have bribed the summoning officer to put them at the bottom of their list, or keep them out altogether, so as to prevent them from discharging this painful duty and the instances I may say are innumerable, within my own observation, of jurymen giving verdicts, in capital cases, in

favour of the prisoner directly contrary to the evidence. I have seen acquittals in forgery where the verdict has excited the astonishment of every one in court, because the guilt appeared unequivocal, and the acquittal could only be attributed to a strong feeling of sympathy and humanity in the jury to save a fellow creature from certain death. The old professed thieves are aware of this sympathy, and are desirous of being tried rather on capital indictments than otherwise; it has frequently happened to myself in my communications with them, that they have expressed a wish that they might be indicted capitally, because there was a greater chance of escape. In the course of my experience, I have found that the punishment of death has no terror upon a common thief; indeed it is much more the subject of ridicule among them than of serious deliberation; their common expression among themselves used to be, "such a one is to be twisted" and now it is, "such a one is to be top't." The certain approach of an ignominious death does not seem to operate upon them, for after the warrant has come down for their execution, I have seen them treat it with levity. I once saw a man for whom I had been concerned, the day before his execution, and on my offering him condolence and expressing my sorrow at his situation, he replied, with an air of indifference, "Players at bowls must expect rubbers." Another man I heard say, that it was only a few minutes, a kick and a struggle, and it was all

over; and that if he was kept hanging for more than an hour, he should leave directions for an action to be brought against the sheriffs and others; and others I have heard state, that they should kick Jack Ketch in their last moments. I have seen some of the last separations of persons about to be executed with their friends, where there was nothing of solemnity in it; and it was more like a parting for a country journey than taking their last farewell. I heard one man say (in taking a glass of wine) to his companion who was to suffer next morning, "Well, here's luck." The fate of one set of culprits, in some instances, had no effect even on those who were next to be reported; they play at ball and pass their jokes, as if nothing was the matter. I mention these circumstances to show what little fear common thieves entertain of capital punishment; and that so far from being arrested in their wicked courses by the distant possibility of its infliction, they are not even intimidated at its certainty; and the present numerous enactments to take away life appear to me wholly inefficacious. But there are punishments which I am convinced a thief would dread, and which, if steadily pursued, might have the most salutary effect; namely, a course of discipline totally reversing his former habits. Idleness is one of the prominent cha racteristics of a professed thiefput him to labour: Debauchery is another quality-abstinence is its opposite apply it: Dissipated company is a thing they indulge in; they ought, therefore, to ex

perience solitude; They are accustomed to uncontrolled liberty of action; I would, consequently impose restraint and decorum: and were these suggestions put in practice, I have no doubt we should find a considerable reduction in the number of offenders; I say this, because I have very often heard thieves express their great dislike and dread of being sent to the House of Correction, or to the Hulks, where they would be obliged to labour and be kept under restraint; but I never heard one say he was afraid of being hanged. Formerly, before Newgate was under the regulations that it now is, I could always tell an old thief from the person who had for the first time committed crime; the novice would shudder at the idea of being sent to Newgate, but the old thief would request that he might be committed at once to that prison by the magistrate, because he could there associate with his companions and have his girl to sleep with him; which some years back used to be allowed or winked at by the upper turnkeys; but since the late regulations, certainly, I have not heard of such applications being made by thieves, because now they are as much restrained and kept in order in Newgate, as in other prisons. From my own observations, I am quite certain that a thief cannot bear the idea of being kept under subordination. As to transportation, I, with deference, think it ought not to be adopted, except for incorrigible offenders, and then it ought to be for life; if it is for seven years, the novelty of the

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thing, and the prospect of returning to their friends and associates, reconciles offenders to it, so that in fact they consider it no punishment, and when this sentence is passed on men, they frequently say, "Thank you, my Lord." Indeed this is a common expression, used every session by prisoners when sentenced to seven years transportation.

Have you any particular observations to make on the offences of stealing in shops, and privately stealing in dwelling-houses? -I have; the stealing in a dwelling-house above the value of 40s. and privately stealing in a shop to the value of 5s. is capital; and though I have frequently been present where the evidence has in my mind amounted to demonstration, and it has struck me that many of the articles were of such value as to imperiously call upon the jury for a verdict of guilty, they have, from motives of compassion, given a verdict contrary to such evidence, by reducing the value of the article stolen so low as to lessen the offence to grand larceny.

What are the offences in which you think there is neither a general reluctance to prosecute nor to convict?-Murder, arson, burglary, but not in its extended sense, such as breaking a pane of glass or lifting a latch, but where it is committed by a professed house-breaker, who breaks into a house in the middle of the night highway robbery accompanied with violence, cutting and other offences under lord Ellenborough's Act, where it is the clear intent of the offender to commit murder, but the interpo

sition of Divine providence, or accident, only prevents its accomplishment.

Do you not think that the offenders who have the least fear of death are the most dissolute and idle?-Certainly they are.

And therefore the most likely to feel confinement and hard labour much? Certainly; I very believe it would be felt by them as the greatest punishment that could be inflicted.

Have you made any observation with respect to the expense and trouble that might be saved to prosecutors by trying accessaries after the fact in the same county with the principals?—I have; some years ago an act of parliament was passed to enable the prosecutor to try the accessary before the fact in the same county with the principal; this act has been found extremely useful; but it appears to me, that it would very much facilitate the purposes of justice if the ac-. cessary after the fact were also to be liable to be tried with the principal; because prosecutors after convicting the principal in one county, are now frequently put to very great expense in being obliged to go to another county to prosecute the receiver, and have all the chances of a failure of justice in losing their witnesses by death or other accidental

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causes.

Can you state the average number of persons for whom you have been professionally engaged yearly, at the Old Bailey?-I cannot with certainty, but on a moderate computation, I should think one hundred prisoners yearly; and during my experi

ence

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Are the committee to understand you as stating, that you consider capital punishments to be efficacious only in those cases where the general feelings of the public go along with them?Certainly; the thieves observe the sympathy of the public, and it seems to console them, and they appear less concerned than those who witness their sentence; I have been present on very many occasions when the sentence of death has been passed, and the criminals have been far less affected than the auditors.

Do you think that the general feeling goes along with the infliction of the punishment of death, in the cases of crime unaccompanied with violence?-Certain ly it does not.

Do you conceive that the infliction of the punishment of death, in those cases, tends rather to excite the public feeling

against the criminal laws?—No doubt it does; there are, I believe, very few advocates for the generality of the present capital punishments.

Do you mean to apply that observation to those who have had the most experience of the effect of those capital punishments?-I should think I might safely so apply it.

REPORT ON GAOLS.

S. Hoare, jun. esq. examined. You are a visitor of the Refuge for the Destitute ?—I am.

Does your acquaintance with that establishment enable you to state what ought to be the provision with respect to boys in different gaols?In the different prisons I have visited, the reformation of the boys is generally considered as hopeless; in the Refuge we generally succeed; therefore, I think that the system pursued there might be adopted with great probability of success in our prisons and penitentiaries.

Will you state to the committee what that system is; does it apply particularly to boys?— In the male refuge, chiefly to boys; there are some men among them, though but few in proportion.

Have the goodness to state the plan adopted in that establishment?-They are in some measure classed; constantly employed; their religious instruction, as well as their general education, is attended to; and improper association is very much prevented.

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