Mr. LILIENTHAL. Well, considering the fact that there were 55 lawyers on the other side, including such men as Newton Baker, I do not think that our expenditures in respect to Mr. O'Brian were unreasonable by any means-in fact, they represented a sacrifice on his part.

But let me say this, Senator, just to keep the record straight. Senator MCKELLAR. Yes, sir?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. At the time Mr. O'Brian was special counsel to the TVA in these constitutional lawsuits, Mr. James Lawrence Fly was general counsel and Mr. W. C. Fitts was general solicitor and Mr. Swidler was one of the assistant general counsel. I do not know that it makes any difference, but it just was not correct in your question. The CHAIRMAN. It is 12 o'clock, gentlemen, and under the rules of the Senate we are forbidden to sit while the Senate is in session.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Mr. Chairman, a question was raised the other day about the director of military applications, and it was explained that we were about to make such appointment. Could I report on that?

The CHAIRMAN. I merely asked the question as to whether or not you had appointed the director.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I would like to report that we have, and give you his name, if I may, if there is a moment for that.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I have here a letter from the Atomic Energy Commission, which I signed yesterday, to Secretary Patterson, requesting the Secretary of War to approve the assignment to the staff of the Commission of Col. James McCormack, who is presently assigned to Plans and Operations Division of the War Department General Staff; and also a letter from Secretary Patterson acceding to this request, indicating the background of Colonel McCormack, who is not only a graduate of West Point but a Rhodes scholar and a graduate of MIT, and saying:

I and the War Department have complete confidence in Colonel McCormack and in his ability to perform the tasks you may assign him. Colonel McCormack and the Atomic Energy Commission are assured of the fullest cooperation of the War Department.

It is signed by Robert P. Patterson, Secretary of War.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.

Senator MCKELLAR. Mr. Chairman, may I ask one more question?
The CHAIRMAN. You may ask the question, Senator, except that
we are up against a rigid Senate rule under the new rules.
Senator MCKELLAR. I will withdraw it.

The CHAIRMAN. You will have an opportunity on Monday. Senator MCKELLAR. There was certain information that I wanted him to get.

The CHAIRMAN. This hearing will be adjourned until next Monday. The hearing will be held in room 412, the Public Works committee room, and will begin at 10:30 that morning.

At that time, under an arrangement with Mr. Baruch, he will take the stand immediately at 10:30, and will complete whatever statement he has to make after; after which, Senator McKellar, you may proceed with Mr. Lilienthal.

Senator MCKELIAR. Very well.

(Whereupon, at 12:05 p. m., the committee adjourned until 10:30 a. m., Monday, February 3, 1947.)

CONFIRMATION OF ATOMIC ENERGY COMMISSION

AND GENERAL MANAGER

MONDAY, FEBRUARY 3, 1947

UNITED STATES SENATE, COMMITTEE ON ATOMIC ENERGY, Washington, D. C

The committee met at 10:30 a. m., room 318, Senate Office Building, pursuant to adjournment, Senator Bourke B. Hickenlooper (chairman), presiding.

Present: Senators Hickenlooper (chairman), Vandenberg, Knowland, Bricker, McMahon, Johnson, Russell.

Also present: Senator McKellar; Representative Cole.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

The first witness this morning is Mr. Bernard M. Baruch.

I want to say, Mr. Baruch, that we are glad to have you here this morning, and we shall be delighted and benefited, I am sure, by your suggestions.

We have a résumé of your experiences, which may not be necessary to the American public, but for the record we will take the liberty of putting it in, at the beginning of your testimony here. (The résumé referred to is as follows:)

BERNARD MANNES BARUCH

b. Aug. 19, 1870; s. Simon B. (surgeon C. S. A.) and Belle (Wolfe) B.; A. B. Coll. City of N. Y., 1889; LL. D. Williams Coll., 1923 U. of S. C., 1925, Johns Hopkins U., 1933, Oglethorpe U., 1933, Coll. of Charleston, S. C., 1935, The Citadel, 1937; D. C. L., Union Coll., 1937; m. Annie Griffen, Oct. 20, 1897 (died Jan. 16, 1938); children-Belle Wilcox, Bernard M., Renee Wilcox. Mem. New York Stock Exchange many years; apptd., 1916, by Pres. Wilson, mem. Advisory Commn. of Council Nat. Defense; was made Chmn. Com. on Raw Materials, Minerals and Metals, also commr. in charge of raw materials for War Industries Bd., and mem. commn. in charge of all purchases for the Allies; apptd. chmn. War Industries Bd. Mar. 5, 1918; resigned Jan. 1, 1919; connected with Am. Commn. to Negotiate Peace as mem. drafting com. of Economic Sect.; mem. Supreme Economic Council and chmn. of its raw materials div.; Am. del. on economics and reparation clauses; economic adviser for the Am. Peace Commn. Mem. President's Conf. for Capital and Labor, Oct. 1919, President's Agricultural Conf., Jan. 1922. Adviser to James F. Byrnes, war mobilization Dir., since 1943; apptd. head of fact-finding Com., on synthetic rubber by Pres. Roosevelt, 1942; made report to President and James F. Byrnes on War and Postwar Plans, Feb. 1944. Author: American Industry in the War; Making of Economic and Reparation Sections of Peace Treaty, 1920; also treaties on various economic subjects. Home: 1055 5th Ave.; Office: 597 Madison Ave., N. Y., N. Y.

The CHAIRMAN. I think it is sufficient to say that you have had a lifetime of experience in the public interest and contribution to our national progress, and we know that you have been especially interested in the last 2 or 3 years in the matter of atomic energy and its developments; not only in this country, but in the world.

Therefore, we shall value your advice, I am sure, very greatly, and shall welcome anything that you have to say to us.

This meeting this morning is a continuation of the hearings on the matter of the confirmation of Presidential appointments to the Atomic Energy Commission and the office of General Manager of that Commission.

I presume that you have followed this matter, in the newspapers and otherwise, so that you are not uninformed with respect to it.

Therefore, I would like to call on you at this time for whatever observations you may care to make as to the appointees, the five members of the Commission who have been appointed by the Presi dent; treating them individually or collectively, in whatever manner you would care to proceed.

Do you have any comments, or would you care to make any, upon, first, your conception of the qualifications of appointees to this Commission; and, secondly, is there any statement or comment you might care to make upon any individual members that have been appointed? Would you first give us an outline of your conception of the general qualifications for this Commission?

STATEMENT OF BERNARD M. BARUCH

Mr. BARUCH. Of course, that is as constituted; that is what we are talking about. I know three members of the Commission, one of whom worked with me in the Atomic Energy Commission, working in connection with the international aspects: Dr. Bacher. I can speak of him only in the highest terms. Everyone knows, of course, of his scientific qualifications. But I can also speak for his ability in the handling of 11 other nations, in getting them to agree to certain data that was important in arriving at the conclusions at which we did arrive.

Dr. Bacher is thoroughly qualified.

I have known Lewis Strauss ever since World War I, when he was secretary to Mr. Hoover, and in all of his work since, and I know he is thoroughly qualified.

I did not know, until he was appointed, that he had a considerable knowledge and had made a study of atomic energy. I knew that he knew about government and about business.

The Chairman of the Commission, Mr. Lilienthal, I have known for some time, and I think he is a well qualified man. He is a man of prodigious energy, of driving force. I think sometimes that in his conception of his duty he drives exceedingly hard; and sometimes he perhaps makes enemies or creates misunderstandings. He never had any with me, but I understand, that at some time or other, he has had some with my dear friend, Senator McKellar-whom I have known for 31 years, and for whom my affection and admiration have grown each year in the time that I have known him, since the great days of Woodrow Wilson, when he was particularly active, and up until now.

Those differences I have never discussed with either one of them. I have had a closer and more affectionate relationship with Mr. McKellar than I have with Mr. Lilienthal. But Mr. Lilienthal is thoroughly qualified, a good manager-knows his subject.

They have already given him two important jobs, outside of his work in the Tennessee Valley Authority. He was the active man in

the so-called Acheson-Lilienthal-Oppenheimer-Marks report; what you call the State Department report.

It was a very fine job as far as it went. And now he has been appointed here. He has as full a knowledge of atomic energy and its prospects in the future, I suppose, as anybody else. I would say he is a man of integrity and a man of ability, and, I think, a fine public

servant.

I have only met Mr. Waymack this morning, and I do not know whether I would know Mr. Pike or not.

I do not think I have ever met Mr. Wilson.

I only know of most of these men through the Acheson-Lilienthal report. It seems to me that the most important positions outside of the Commission are the General Manager and the Counsel. They are the men who carry out the policy. From the kind of men-the Commission-I know these men to be, they will be on top of their jobs. Those are about all of the general observations I can make.

The CHAIRMAN. May I ask if you have any observations to make on the question of whether or not this Commission would be better constituted with a panel, for instance, of top-flight scientists or topflight engineers or top-flight business executives? Had you given any thought to that particular phase of it?

Mr. BARUCH. We have a panel of scientists.

The CHAIRMAN. That is true. I was talking about the controlling members of the Commission; that is, the Commission itself.

Mr. BARUCH. Well, you already have this. This has been constituted, passed, and included in what was called the McMahon bill. The Commissioners have been appointed. It seems to me that time and experience will tell whether you have acted wisely or not.

It does not, seem to me we can go back on what Congress has done. We have to proceed, I presume, on what has been enacted.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you care to suggest at this time whether or not you think improvements could be made? Are you prepared at this time to do that?

Mr. BARUCH. No, I am not.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you say that you did not know Mr. Wilson, the General Manager?

Mr. BARUCH. I do not know him, sir. Is he here today?

The CHAIRMAN. You mentioned the general counsel. Do you know Mr. Marks?

Mr. BARUCH. I have met him on two occasions.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any observations resulting from your acquaintance with him that you would care to make?

Mr. BARUCH. I know he is a very able fellow. I have only met him on two occasions, the first being when we had a joint meeting of the Acheson-Lilienthal group and my own group. I know he has the reputation of being very able, but I know nothing about him.

I should be less than frank if I did not say that I know there has been a good deal of discussion pro and con about him. I do not want to hide that fact, because it is evident that there has been a good deal of discussion. But I have no opinion of him, because I have never had more than two contacts with him. I found that he was very intelligent and had a grasp of the scope of work that he was discussing, which was the Acheson-Lilienthal report. And he expressed himself very well.

The CHAIRMAN. There is one other question I would like to ask you, Mr. Baruch. Looking over the list of key employees of this Commission at the present time, I have the impression that the overwhelming number of them have had their chief, if not their entire experience in governmental bureau operations rather than in competitive enterprise. I am not speaking necessarily of the members of the Commission, but of the key employees.

Any observation as to whether or not this great enterprise of the operation of atomic energy domestically would be better served by a substantial percentage, at least, of highly qualified persons who had had long experience in competitive enterprise, or by a panel consisting almost entirely of people whose experience has been limited to governmental operations financed by public money?

Mr. BARUCH. Of course, if we want to build up, as I think we should, an increased respect for public service, I think it is just as well to promote those men engaged in public service But everything depends upon the man himself, Senator. You might pick a man from government and he might be very good, and you might pick a man from a great corporation and he might be a flop. It is a matter of the individual himself. And much, of course, will depend upon the Commission. I do not think you can make any general rule any more than you can about individuals.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions by members of the committee? Senator Johnson?

Senator JOHNSON. Yes.

I should like to ask you, Mr. Baruch, what you would conceive to be the qualifications of a manager for such an agency as the Atomic Energy Commission? What sort of a man would you select if you had the selection of him, leaving out personalities? You say you do not know Mr. Wilson.

Mr. BARUCH. No, sir.

Senator JOHNSON. But I would like to have you give us a picture of the qualifications of the kind of a man that you would like to have if you were selecting that manager?

Mr. BARUCH. I do not like to deal in personalities.

Senator JOHNSON. I do not want you to but I would like to have you describe the man you would select.

Mr. BARUCH. I would want to have a man who was able to get along with people, and one who knew something about the subject. I do not think you necessarily need a scientist, because this is not necessarily in the field of science but in the field of human relations, which we call politics, and in the field of ethics, as well.

This subject is now more a military question until the treaty is signed and an understanding is reached with the various nations of the world.

I think this is a problem that is as much military as anything else. You gentlemen are quite aware of the fact that when you deal with the subject from an industrial standpoint you are 75 percent on the way to the bomb. That is a rough way of expressing it. When you get atomic energy you can use it for useful purposes, you can use it also in the making of a bomb. I think Dr. Bacher will bear me out on that. He has taught me that, so he will have to confirm it. Senator JOHNSON. That is fine, Mr. Baruch, and I agree with everything that you have said, but I still have not had your description of an ideal manager.