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Senator McKELLAR. Who is the man? Do you remember who it was?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I do not know. No one had any direct contact with me on that.

Senator McKELLAR. Mr. Lilienthal, I wanted to ask you about another thing. Were your father and mother born in Illinois?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. No, they were not. They were born in AustriaHungary.

Senator McKELLAR. What place in Austria-Hungary?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I confess I do not know the name, but I will supply that.

Senator McKELLAR. Will you supply the name? I will be much
obliged to you.
Mr. LILIENTHAL. Yes.
(The information referred to is as follows:)
In the vicinity of Pressburg, now Czechoslovakia.
Senator McKELLAR. Now, there are some other things that I want
to ask you about.
Are you a Communist?
Mr. LILIENTHAL. I did not hear.
Senator McKellar. Are you a Communist?
Mr. LILIENTHAL. No.
Senator MCKELLAR. Are you a Democrat?
Mr. LILIENTHAL. No.
Senator McKELLAR. Are you a Republican?
Mr. LILIENTHAL. No. I am like a great many other people: not
affiliated with any political party. I am an independent voter.
Senator McKELLAR. Do you always vote?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I try to vote every time; yes. I may have missed occasionally, but I usually vote.

Senator McKELLAR. While you were down there in the Tennessee Valley Authority, and especially in the last year, who were your principal associates in the Authority?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. My fellow directors were Harcourt A. Morgan, the former president of the University of Tennessee, and James P. Pope, a former member of the Senate from the State of Idaho. And the general manager was Mr. Gordon R. Clapp.

Senator MCKELLAR. Who recommended Mr. Gordon R. Clapp to succeed you?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. There may have been a number of people, but I was among them.

Senator McKELLAR. Do you know of anyone else who recommended Mr. Clapp except yourself?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I do not know, no. I can think of people who might have, but I do not know.

Senator MCKELLAR. Yesterday it was testified before another committee of the Senate that Mr. Clapp was your stooge. Mr. LILIENTHAL. My what? Senator McKELLAR. Stooge, s-t-0-0-g-e. Did you ever hear of that word?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Never applied to Mr. Clapp. Senator McKELLAR. Never applied to Mr. Clapp. Well, let me ask

you: Who were your principal associates there in the Tennessee l'alley Authority?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Do you mean official associates?

Senator McKELLAR. Who were your associates, and those that you relied on in carrying out your views in the Tennessee Valley Authority?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I supplied for the record of this committee a list of the department heads, and I could try to recite the names of some of those from memory. I think I could cover a number of them.

Senator MCKELLAR. Yes; I would like to have that.
Mr. LILIENTHAL. Is that what you mean?
Senator MCKELLAR. Yes; that is exactly what I mean.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Now, let us see. Clarence Blee is the chief engineer, during the most recent period, and before that Colonel Theodore Parker.

Senator MCKELLAR. Colonel Theodore Parker and Clarence Blee? Mr. LILIENTHAL. Yes, B-l-e-e.

Senator McKELLAR. I want to ask you if you know three men. I will give you the names. First, Mr. Joe C. Swidler.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Yes.
Senator McKELLAR. He was one of your friends, was he not?
Mr. LILIENTHAL. Yes; and associate.
Senator McKELLAR. Do you know Mr. Herbert Marks?
Mr. LILIENTHAL. Yes; I do, quite well.
Senator MCKELLAR. Was he an associate and friend?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Yes. He was not with the TVA, has not been for a number of years, but I knew him when I was in the TVA, of course, quite well.

Senator MCKELLAR. Do you know Mr. Melvin Siegel, who was with the TVA quite a while?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Yes; although not very well. He was a junior in the Legal Department, I believe.

Senator McKELLAR. Instead of not knowing him very well, did you not-did not you and Mr. Siegel and Mr. Swidler and Mr. Marks associate together more than any four men in the organization, and were you not known as “Dave," "Mel," "Joe," and "Herb”?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Well, the first part of your question, the answer is no; although I should have been very proud to associate with most of those men, and it just bappens that I did not. As to the second part, I think those nicknames are correct.

Senator McKellar. You think they are correct, and you all constantly ran together there in the department?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I have just said that that is not true.

Senator MCKELLAR. Did they not go to you to find out what you wanted done and given instructions to others to have what you wanted done?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. No; that is not the--administrative setup.
Senator McKELLAR. That is not correct?
Mr. LILIENTHAL. No.

Senator McKELLAR. Where did you get Mr. Swidler? He was the general counsel; the general counsel now, is he not?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Yes; he is. “Where," did you say? Senator MCKELLAR. Yes.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. At the time when he came to the TVA, which was 1933, he was, I believe, in the Solicitor's Office of the Interior Department.

you not?

Senator MCKELLAR. You brought him in, did
Mr. LILIENTHAL. Into the TVA?
Senator MCKELLAR. Yes.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I do not recall, but I would be very proud if that were the case, because he is a very able man.

Senator McKELLAR. Was he à lawyer practicing in the Federal courts when you selected him as general counsel of the TVA?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I am sure he was a lawyer admitted to practice law in appellate courts.

Senator McKELLAR. That is not the question I am asking you. I am asking you: Was he a lawyer, and had he progressed far enough to be able to practice in the Federal courts when you appointed him general counsel of the TVA?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I do not know the precise answer to that. I know that a few months after that, he argued a case in the Supreme Court of the United States; and successfully, I may say.

Senator McKELLAR. That has been just about a few months ago? Mr. LILIENTHAL. He has only been general counsel a relatively short time.

Senator MCKELLAR. He was general counsel, still, for more than 2 years before he was ever licensed to practice law in the Federal courts, was he not?

Mr. LilIENTHAL. I do not know about that. Senator MCKELLAR. I will ask you to look at your records and see if Mr. Swidler was not licensed to practice in the Federal courts on July 8, as I remember the date, but sometime in July anyway, 1946; and had not he then been general counsel under your administration, general counsel of the TVA, for more than 2 years? Will you look up your records and answer that question? Mr. LILIENTHAL. I will ask that that be looked up. (The information referred to is as follows:) Mr. Swidler was appointed general counsel of TVA on November 29, 1944, to be effective upon his return from active service in the Navy, which was December 7, 1945. His appointment was recommended by the retiring general counsel, Mr. W. C. Fitts, and Mr. G. R. Clapp, general manager. His prior service with TVA had been as follows: Appointed power attorney, November 9, 1933; Assistant General Solicitor, September 1, 1937; Solicitor, August 2, 1939; military leave, June 17, 1943. Returned to duty as general counsel, December 7, 1945, as above stated.

Mr. Swidler was admitted to the bar in the State of Illinois, October 16, 1930 in the State of Tennessee, October 18, 1934; the Supreme Court of the United States, December 19, 1935; and the United States District Court, Eastern District of Tennessee, July , 1946.

Senator MCKELLAR. Mr. William Fitts. I believe Mr. Fitts comes from Alabama, but I am not sure when he was your general counsel and left your employ; did not he advise you not to appoint Mr. Swidler?

(Brief interruption.) The Chairman. Would you like to have the question read, Mr. Lilienthal?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Yes, I would.
The CHAIRMAN. Read it, please, Mr. Reporter.
(Reporter reads question of Senator McKellar.)
Mr. LILIENTHAL. No.
Senator MCKELLAR. He did not?
Mr. LILIENTHAL. No.

Senator McKELLAR. Did you not tell Mr. Fitts in the presence of others that you hated to pass him over, because you had passed him over once before and you just did not feel like passing him over again; that he had been with you a long time, and that you did not feel like passing him over?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. This is not too clear in my mind, but my recollection is--and this would be the normal procedure; I do not believe it is otherwise—that Mr. Fitts recommended his successor. Mr. Swidler at the time was in the Navy for a couple of years, and as I recall, when Mr. Fitts left, he recommended that Mr. Swidler, who was then the second in command, on leave--that is to say, the general solicitor-should succeed him.

I could be wrong about that, but that is my recollection. Senator McKELLAR. That is your recollection. All right, sir. We will see about that.

What about Mr. Melvin Siegel? Where did you find him?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. He was not anyone I knew before he came to the TVA. He was brought to the TVA, I think, by its then general counsel, Mr. James Lawrence Fly.

Senator McKELLAR. And you became very closely attached to him, did you not?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Mr. Fly is a very able lawyer; yos.

Senator MCKELLAR. I am talking about Mr. Siegel. Did you not become so attached to him that he called you "Dave"?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Everybody calls me "Dave,” Senator. , That is no mark of distinction.

Senator MCKELLAR. It is a mark of intimacy, though, between you and one of your favorite employees, is it not? Just to be perfectly frank about it, is that not so?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. No. And that just happens not to be a mark of intimacy.

Senator McKELLAR. What position did Mr. Siegel hold when you called him "Mel” and he called you "Dave"?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I have only a vague recollection about Mr. Siegel. He was a junior lawyer in the TVA and left to go into the Army, oh, possibly in 1941. I know he is a very fine lawyer, and he is now, I believe, assisting in the Nuremberg trials. I did not know him very well. I would have been very glad to know him better.

Senator MCKELLAR. Well, did you not know Mr. Swidler well? You knew him very well. You regarded him as a very fine lawyer, did you not?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Yes, I do.

Senator McKELLAR. Notwithstanding the fact that he was not lawyer enough to practice or be permitted to practice in the Federal court until July 1946?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Oh, a good many lawyers who have been long in practice do not seek admission to the Federal bar until a number of years after they began practice generally. I remember, with some amusement, a situation with respect to Wendell Willkie, who had been at the bar a good many years, and a very able lawyer indeed. When he came to argue a case as counsel for a Communist in a civil rights case on appeal in the Supreme Court of the United States, he found that he had neglected to be admitted, and I believe was admitted just before he argued the case. That is not an uncommon thing. As to Mr. Swidler, I feel somewhat as Lincoln did about Grant and the whisky: If a man can win as many cases and difficult cases and do as good a job of counseling as Mr. Swidler has, and still only be admitted to practice in the State courts and the Supreme Court of the United States, then perhaps we ought to get a few more lawyers like that.

But seriously, Senator, I do not think that is a particularly significant thing. His failing to have been admitted to the Federal district bar does not mean he was not eligible for admission; it simply means he had not theretofore applied for admission.

Senator McKELLAR. Well, was not most of the practice of the TVA in the Federal courts?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Mr. Swidler was not engaged in the trial practice. The trial practice was handled by trial lawyers.

Senator MCKELLAR. I thought you just said that Mr. Swidler had won so many cases?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. This was an appelate matter in the Supreme Court of the United States.

Senator MCKELLAR. He never won but that one case in the Supreme Court of the United States; did he?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. That is right.

Senator MCKELLAR. Only that one. Well, he did not win so many cases, then, as you said a little while ago.

Is it not a fact that whenever you had to have a lawyer, a real lawyer, you hired one outside of your own office force, although you had many?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Senator, the record of the TVA's legal department is a very enviable one. I do not know of any case-although at one time we had 37 injunction suits against us in the early daysI do not know of any case which, in the court of last resort, the TVA legal department has ever lost. So that we must have had a pretty good legal department.

Senator MCKELLAR. Well, I want to ask you-again I am sorry you misunderstood my question, but again I will ask you: When you got in real trouble, you went out and employed a special lawyer; did

you not?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. When we got into a very important constitutional lawsuit, we turned to the man who I think is perhaps the leader of the American bar today, Mr. John Lord O'Brian.

Senator McKELLAR. Yes, sir. Now, did you not employ him in two cases?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I think that is correct. Senator MCKELLAR. With Mr. Swidler, this great Mr. Swidler, this great lawyer Mr. Swidler, as your general counsel, did you not employ Mr. John Lord O'Brian and at a fee of $25,000 a case to help you out?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. We did employ Mr. John Lord O'Brian in perhaps the first two cases. That is correct. Senator McKELLAR. And you paid him $25,000 each, did you not? Mr. LILIENTHAL. I have forgotten the fee. Senator McKELLAR. Will you find out and report back to the committee?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. My recollection is that it was more than that. It was certainly worth more than that.

Senator MCKELLAR. It was certainly worth more than that, and you are sorry you did not pay him more than that, are you?

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