At the other end of the problem of the character of control of dangerous activities, I have gone further, I think, in the direction of an international control than I understand him to have gone. It is a curious result that a man who had grown up in the idea of free enterprise should have had a view in the international field of going further toward control than the man who had not grown up in the field of business.

My own reason is that in my own mind I saw no gain to an interference in the field of mining, but I saw every necessity to have a tight control through an international control agency in all the dangerous activities, including power plants, large power plants.

Now, the latter issue has not been talked out to a conclusion, but I know I have had many evidences of Mr. Lilienthal being entirely in agreement with the United States plan, which I think I might fairly say that we authored, at least.

I have seen a good mental capacity, and ability to get hold of difficult problems. So far as his dealings with us have been concerned, he has been very open-minded and very fair-minded.

As to Strauss, we were youngsters here in the prior war. We have been in competing banking firms in New York for twenty-odd years. I think I know his capacity and his character uphill and downhill, and without reservation, I have no question of approval of his capacity, or his integrity, or his interest in the Nation.

Dr. Bacher I had known of slightly, but only slightly, until our delegation was formed. I would guess-and I have not checked records that he was with us substantially full time for about 4 months or thereabouts.

Of course, I had access to the reputation that he had won in the field of science, and I started out with a favorable attitude toward the man, and I retained it, and that attitude grew all the time I was working with him.

He is a very competent, resourceful man, has a fine manner of dealing with people, and I found in discussing scientific matters with foreign delegations that he was one of the most resourceful men we had in our group.

You see, we worked as a team. We did not try to split this up into little segments. But I know that Dr. Bacher had the confidence of all, expressed to me by most delegations, as to his integrity and reasonableness.

The other men I have known only as names.

That includes Mr. Wilson; I have met him, but I know nothing about him.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wilson was secretary of one of the study groups; I believe the one appointed by the President. Did he carry on over your group in any capacity of that kind?

Mr. HANCOCK. No, sir. The only contact we had with him: He was present at a meeting which our group had, as I recall, the middle of May with the members of the Acheson-Lilienthal groups. So I know Mr. Wilson, and I think I would know him if I saw him, but I do not think we ever exchanged more than greeting.

We never discussed the matter.

The CHAIRMAN. Therefore, you feel that your acquaintance is not sufficient to warrant your giving an opinion?

Mr. HANCOCK. No; I merely know the facts that everybody knows and that are a matter of public record.

The CHAIRMAN. And the same with Mr. Waymack?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Pike is the fifth member of the Commission. Have you had any extensive acquaintance with Mr. Pike?

Mr. HANCOCK. No, sir; I have not. I should have had, but I was too busy with other matters when he was active in the SEC.

Senator VANDENBERG. Mr. Hancock, what is your conception of the position of General Manager of this institution? In your view, does it require rather broad and general business experience in largescale operations?

Mr. HANCOCK. I do not know what the set-up of the organization is going to be. I am not trying to evade the question. I will be perfectly frank. If I had been in the position of choosing a General Manager, I would have picked a man who had a great deal of experience with people, business organizations, and with this problem.

I do not know whether that kind of a man was available or whether an effort was made to get him.

The CHAIRMAN. When you say that you do not know what the set-up is going to be-

Mr. HANCOCK. I know the legal set-up, but I do not know the operating set-up inside, or how they are going to function.

Senator MCMAHON. We hope that they will correspond; the legal and the actuality.

Mr. HANCOCK. They are a little different. I think you can have a legal set-up, but I think as an operating proposition it is primarily going to be determined upon where the initiative lies. If the initiative is going to lie where I prefer to have it, it would be in the General Manager. If this body which has the responsibility decides it is going to be handling the initiative, then a different kind of man might very well be chosen for the General Manager. But it is that sort of thing that I am not familiar with.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission has announced, Mr. Hancock, ◄ that it has adopted the policy of the Commission remaining an over-all policy-making group, and not a compartmentalized Commission, in which each Commissioner may have charge of a certain department or group.

Mr. HANCOCK. I would agree with that conclusion. I know I spent 2 weeks trying to unscramble this problem in a functional way, and I cannot do it. The difficulty is that you may look at a legal aspect; you may look at a scientific aspect; you may look at a patent aspect. And when you get all through, it is just a ball. And you can look at the various facets, but I could not find the way to functionalize it. Therefore, we have operated as a team. Every morning we have had every one of our staff in for half an hour, an hour, an hour and a half, depending upon the needs of the day.

Everyone knew what was going on on every front. The men knew the individual facets, but they had to check with other men who were engaged in other facets.

I am frank to say, as to the international field, that I could not make it a functional organization at all-and I would like to have.

The CHAIRMAN. We are not prepared at this time to discuss the international phases of the matter, because this is purely a domestic inquiry at this moment.

Mr. HANCOCK. I think organization-wise the possible recommendation is essentially the same, until you get to the character or the make-up of the international body.

The CHAIRMAN. With the Commission as an over-all policy-making body, as they have announced, is it your opinion that it then does cast automatically a tremendous amount of initiative on the General Manager?

Mr. HANCOCK. Accepting the statement; yes. I am not sure what is in their mind. If they are going to be only a policy-making body and leave it to a general manager to carry out those policies, you are going to have a little different problem than if the situation were otherwise.

The CHAIRMAN. It is my understanding from the testimony thus far that they have said quite clearly that they intend to be merely an over-all policy-making body and will not attempt to go into the details of the operation of the project. Therefore, I would think from your interpretation that a great deal of initiative-in fact. practically all of the administrative initiative-would have to come from the General Manager.

Mr. HANCOCK. I would think so. But, again, I am speaking from the side lines.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions, gentlemen?

Are there any further pertinent observations with respect to this domestic situation that would occur to you and that you would like to make at this time?

Mr. HANCOCK. Not as to personnel; nothing occurs to me in that field.

The CHAIRMAN. There are no other questions on the part of the committee, Mr. Hancock. I thank you very much for taking the time to come here.

I know you had some other matters that you postponed in order to come down here for this short time this morning. We appreciate your help.

Mr. HANCOCK. If you get to the other part of the problem, and we can be of any help, we shall be glad to assist.

The CHAIRMAN. I think without doubt the joint committee would like to discuss this matter, or some other phases of this matter, with you. Thank you.

Mr. Lilienthal, would you again take the stand?

Mr. Lilienthal, as announced the other day, Senator McKellar, under the rights of the Senate, desires to ask you some questions; and the committee, as all committees of the Senate do, accord any Member of the Senate that right when the Senator is not a member of the particular committee examining into a particular subject.

Therefore, with that understanding, Senator McKellar may proceed.

TESTIMONY OF DAVID LILIENTHAL, APPOINTEE TO THE CHAIRMANSHIP OF THE UNITED STATES ATOMIC ENERGY COMMISSION-Resumed

Senator MCKELLAR. Mr. Lilienthal, I believe you lived for a while in Wisconsin, did you not?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Yes; I did, sir.

Senator MCKELLAR. How long did you live there?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Oh, about 2 years or 21⁄2 years.

Senator MCKELLAR. Did you know a Mr. Asa K. Owen while you were there?

Mr. LaLIENTHAL. No; I do not recall that I did.

Senator MCKELLAR. Mr. Chairman, I want to read a very short letter from Judge Asa K. Owen, of Price County. It is dated January 27, 1947. I do not know him, either. It is addressed to me.

I hear, over the radio, that you oppose the confirmation of the President's appointment of David Lilienthal to head the Atomic Energy Commission, or whatever it is called. I believe that you are absolutely sound on this.

When

we had him here in Wisconsin, I, for one, became convinced of his red leanings. I never, never met him, and never had any dealings with him, but so frequently read of his views expressed in the State press, that I was convinced that he was unsound and unsafe. It was a relief to me when he was called to Washington, figuring we were well rid of him in this State and not expecting that he would assume any prominence nationally. I think if you will take the trouble to have your investigators come to Wisconsin and look back through the press, during the years of his State service, you will find plenty.

Now, I want to ask you about your own views as to government. You are quite a liberal-minded man in government, are you not, Mr. Lilienthal.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I hope I am.

Senator MCKELLAR. You hope you are. You do not believe in a government of law, do you?

sir.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I do not know of any other kind of government,

Senator MCKELLAR. Did you ever write of any other kind of government?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Well, I think perhaps I can say this-that I think we must have a government by law rather than by hearsay and suspicion and innuendo and rumor, but that we also must rely upon men. I think there is a major fallacy in the aphorism that this is a government of laws and not of men, implying that by passing good laws, and not having men of integrity and judgment to administer them, we have thereby achieved sound government. I think perhaps that modification of the usual aphorism is justified.

Senator MCKELLAR. Now, I want to ask you if you authorized a sketch that appears concerning you in the Current Biography of 1944? Mr. LILIENTHAL. No; not that I recall.

Senator MCKELLAR. You do not recall it. It quotes you very frequently, as if it might have been prepared in your office.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Sometimes people are quoted without that necessarily meaning perhaps if you will tell me what is it?

Senator MCKELLAR. I want to read it to you and ask if it was prepared in your office or where it was prepared.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Yes, sir.

Senator MCKELLAR (reading):

Lilienthal, David E. (LI) July 8, 1899-Chairman of Tennessee Valley Authority.

Address: b. New Sprankle Bldg., Knoxville, Tenn.; h. 81 Pine Road, Norris, Tenn.

And it quotes you as saying this, in the very beginning:

"I believe men may learn to work in harmony with the forces of nature, neither despoiling what God has given, nor helpless to put them to use," writes David E. Lilienthal, Chairman of the Tennessee Valley Authority.

You say that is correct?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. It sounds familiar.

Senator MCKELLAR. It sounds familiar to me, too. And, then, continuing your quotation:

I believe that through the practice of democracy the world of technology holds out the greatest opportunity in all history for the development of the individual, according to his own talents, aspirations, and willingness to carry the responsi bilities of a free man. We have a choice: to use science either for evil or for good. I believe men can make themselves free. These convictions have been fortified as I have seen them take on substance and become part of the life of this valley and of its people.

Now, you evidently gave that out, did you not?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Senator, as you read it, it sounds a little "corny," but

Senator MCKELLAR. A little what?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I was using a Tennessee expression.

Senator MCKELLAR. I would like to know about that. I am very much interested in Tennessee. A little "corny"?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. A little "corny", I thought; yes. But it is what I have written in a book.

Senator MCKELLAR. It is what you have written in a book. Now, I go on:

Born in Morton, Ill., July 8, 1899, the son of Leo and Minna (Rosenak) Lilienthal, David Eli Lilienthal learned to become a fighter early in life—when a professional known as the Tacoma Tiger took him in hand. "He damn near killed me in the process, but he taught me something about coming up off the floor and taking more-which has come in handy."

I stop there long enough to say that that sounds familiar, too, in view of the expression that you used the other day when you said you had done your damnedest to keep from taking this position to which you have been appointed by the President. Is that correct? I mean, is this quotation correct?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Well, the substance of it is certainly correct. I blush, but I probably was that profane, Senator. I should not have said it that way.

Senator McKELLAR. To continue:

At DePauw University in Greencastle, Ind., where he took his bachelor of arts in 1920, he came away with a Phi Beta Kappa key-and a reputation as a light heavyweight boxer. It was at DuPauw, too, that he met his future wife, Helen Marian Lamb; and when he went on to Harvard Law School she took postgraduate work at nearby Radcliffe College. On September 4, 1923, after Lilienthal had taken his bachelor of laws from Harvard, the young couple were married. That same year Lilienthal was admitted to the Illinois Bar.

From 1923 to 1926 the young lawyer was associated in the practice of law with Donald R. Richberg in Chicago, and he participated in important cases involving the rights of labor. At the same time he contributed numerous articles to such publications as the Nation and the New Outlook as well as to legal journals— All of that is correct, is it not?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Well, I did not get a Phi Beta Kappa key at DuPauw when I was an undergraduate. I did get one subsequently. Senator MCKELLAR. Well, that is not very material.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. It just is not accurate.

Senator MCKELLAR. It is not accurate. You got it later. [Continuing:]

and when he wrote