Mr. BISHOP. Yes, sir.

Senator BRICKER. Just one question: What did they do for your community? You say they did not give you engineering help, and so on. What was the aid that they rendered to your community?

Mr. BISHOP. Well, I can remember very well that they would have representatives of TVA meeting with us and getting our desires and what we people thought; and they cooperated with us to the extent that they would render any suggestions, any technical suggestions, that we might need.

Senator BRICKER. What was the nature of those suggestions and that help?

Mr. BISHOP. Of course, when the dam was built, the water came all around our town. And we did not know exactly whether the water would come up in our streets, or anything like that. We had to ask them all those questions and see just how it would be.

Senator BRICKER. They told you it would not?

Mr. BISHOP. They said it wouldn't. And they said, "We do not want to ruin your town," and so forth.

Senator KNOWLAND. Has it opened up additional water transportation, additional to what you have had before in Guntersville? Mr. BISHOP. Yes, sir.

Senator KNOWLAND. So that you are now in a position to have things shipped either into or out of the city to a greater extent than were before?

Mr. BISHOP. Yes, sir.

Senator BRICKER. Do you use this water transportation very extensively?

Mr. BISHOP. It is being used some now; yes, sir.

Senator KNOWLAND. You have a greige mill now, there in Guntersville?

Mr. BISHOP. Yes, sir; we have two.

Senator KNOWLAND. And you have oil storage there?

Mr. BISHOP. Yes, sir.

Senator BRICKER. Those were built as the result of these facilities? Mr. BISHOP. Yes, sir.

Senator BRICKER. Is there anything else tangible that they did for this community?

Mr. BISHOP. No, sir; I would not say so.

Senator KNOWLAND. Do you have access to power there?
Mr. BISHOP. We have the power, of course.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions? Senator McKellar? Senator MCKELLAR. You said you were skeptical at first. What was the dam at Guntersville there? Was that near the site of the Wheeler Dam?

Mr. BISHOP. It is a good distance from the Wheeler Dam. The Guntersville Dam is the dam that was built 9 miles down the river from my little town, and the Guntersville Dam is the one that flooded the water around our town.

Senator MCKELLAR. When was that finished?
Mr. BISHOP. The Guntersville Dam?

Senator MCKELLAR. Yes, sir.

Mr. BISHOP. I would say that the Guntersville Dam was finished about 1937 or 1938.

Senator MCKELLAR. You said that you were skeptical about it. Were the people there at Guntersville so much skeptical about it? Mr. BISHOP. Yes, sir.

Senator MCKELLAR. Generally that was true; was it not?

Mr. BISHOP. Yes, sir; that was general.

Senator MCKELLAR. What position did your paper, the Decatur Daily paper, take? What is the name of that paper?

Mr. BISHOP. I did not get your question.

Senator MCKELLAR. The name of the paper?

Mr. BISHOP. At Guntersville?

Senator MCKELLAR. Yes.

Mr. BISHOP. Well, at that time, we had the Guntersville Advertiser and the Guntersville Democrat. We had two papers.

Senator MCKELLAR. Do you have two now?

Mr. BISHOP. Yes, sir.

Senator MCKELLAR. Which one does Mr. Shelton own?

Mr. BISHOP. He doesn't live at Guntersville. He lives at Decatur, Ala., and he is with the Decatur Daily.

Senator MCKELLAR. Were your papers in favor of it?

Mr. BISHOP. Our papers?

Senator MCKELLAR. In view of the Guntersville Dam?

Mr. BISHOP. They felt just like we did. We didn't know anything about all of it.

Senator MCKELLAR. You did not want Guntersville surrounded; was that not it?

Mr. BISHOP. And we did not want to be ruined, like we thought we might be at first.

Senator MCKELLAR. And you were not ruined?

Mr. BISHOP. No, sir.

Senator MCKELLAR. You regard the Tennessee Valley Authority as an excellent thing for all the people in the surrounding country;

do

you not?

Mr. BISHOP. Well, it has been a help. It has opened up opportuni

ties for us.

Senator MCKELLAR. Do you know anything about the inside workings? Do you know how much money it makes?

Mr. BISHOP. No, sir; I haven't had an opportunity to find out anything about that.

Senator MCKELLAR. Do you know how many people it employs in Guntersville?

Mr. BISHOP. In Guntersville?

Senator MCKELLAR. Yes, sir.

Mr. BISHOP. I know approximately.

Senator MCKELLAR. And how did it happen that you came up here to testify in this case?

Mr. BISHOP. We came up to testify as to the integrity of Mr. Lilienthal.

Senator MCKELLAR. Well, how long have you known Mr. Lilienthal? Mr. BISHOP. I have known him for 12 or 13 years.

Senator MCKELLAR. Have you been intimate, or how often have you seen him in that length of time?

Mr. BISHOP. We have had Mr. Lilienthal in our town a number of times.

Senator MCKELLAR. About how many, would you say, in the 12 years that you have known him?

Mr. BISHOP. I would say an average of once or twice a year. Senator MCKELLAR. Just came by and paid you a visit occasionally? Mr. BISHOP. Well, sometimes it was that, and sometimes he would meet with a group of businessmen or with some club.

Senator MCKELLAR. But your relationship has not been close with him at all, has it? You would not regard him as an intimate visitor? Mr. BISHOP. Well, I would not say that we are bosom friends. Senator MCKELLAR. Do you know his general reputation all throughout the valley?

Mr. BISHOP. We feel that Mr. Lilienthal is an honest man and a true American.

Senator MCKELLAR. Let me ask you this: I have just put in the record here a statement from the Code of Wisconsin, which prohibits their public service officers from engaging in any private business, and yesterday, a lady by the name of Mrs. Leitzell testified before this committee that she was a former employee of Mr. Lilienthal while Mr. Lilienthal was utilities commissioner of Wisconsin. He was, by a strange coincidence, appointed from Chicago. And she testified that Mr. Lilienthal, while he was commissioner of public utilities, was engaged in a business in Chicago, and she was one of his employees. He had several and she was one of them.

And he told her not to mention that he was still running that business. And she ran it, she and the others connected with it, and Mr. Lilienthal, for more than a year, in violation of that statute. Do you consider that an honest arrangement?

Mr. BISHOP. I will say this: If he did those things, I would say it was not right.

Senator MCKELLAR. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. I did not want to interfere while you were asking the question or eliciting the answer, Senator McKellar, because I did not want to appear to be trying to stop you. But may I suggest that the question of the morality or lack of morality of that particular circumstance is probably more a matter for the judgment of the committee than it is a proper question to ask indiscriminately of witnesses who take the stand. Whatever the fact is, that is the fact. The committee would have to pass upon it. And I do feel that we are going pretty far afield when we question a witness from a remote part of the country about some hypothetical state of facts, at least hypothetical to him, because he has neither heard the testimony nor, I assume, has he read it. I believe that that is a province that the committee will have to pass upon in its judgment.

Senator MCKELLAR. Undoubtedly it will, but may I say in explanation, that he said he came up here to testify as to his honesty. Well, I just put that state of facts, and he answered just as I expected he would. I feel mighty kindly toward anybody from Alabama, be

cause I am a native-born Alabaman, myself. And I just thought that he would give that sort of an answer.

The CHAIRMAN. I may suggest that this gentleman, Mr. Bishop, came here to testify as to his opinion and what he knows in the community or the locality in which his acquaintance has developed.

I am merely expressing my personal opinion that I believe it is unfair to a witness to submit a hypothetical state of facts to him, when he has neither read the record upon which those facts were based, nor was he present, as I understand it, when the testimony was given, and when all this concerns actions at some remote place. I feel that he is perfectly competent to testify about his opinion as to whatever transpired in that locality and during the course of his acquaintance.

Senator CONNALLY. Well, if he does not want to testify, Mr. Chairman, he can decline.

The CHAIRMAN. That, of course, is very true, Senator.

Senator KNOWLAND. Mr. Bishop, I would like to ask one more question. You said earlier that there was quite a bit of opposition to the TVA going into the community; they did not know just what might happen. As of today, would you care to estimate the percentage, in your opinion, of the people of Guntersville who believe that the TVA has been a fine thing for the area?

Mr. BISHOP. I would say that practically all of the people believe that TVA is a good thing. The only people you ever hear say anything against it are those people that TVA helped by buying their property, relieving a lot of mortgages and things like that.

But I would say 9912 percent of the people believe that TVA is a good thing.

Senator KNOWLAND. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions?

Thank you, Mr. Bishop.

Mr. BISHOP. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is Mr. Eckl here?

Mr. ECKL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. ECKL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please.

Will you give your name and address and your business to the reporter, Mr. Eckl.

TESTIMONY OF LOUIS A. ECKL, EDITOR, FLORENCE (ALA.) TIMES, AND TRI-CITIES DAILY, FLORENCE, ALA.

Mr. ECKL. I am Louis A. Eckl, editor of the Florence Times, Florence, Ala., and the Tri-Cities Daily at Sheffield-Tuscumbia, Ala.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have you lived there in the Tennessee Valley area, Mr. Eckl?

Mr. ECKL. I was born within the shadow of Wilson Dam and lived there all my life.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you been generally familiar with the activities in the Tennessee Valley and its development there, as far as the Authority is concerned?

Mr. ECKL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a prepared, written statement? Mr. ECKL. No, sir; I do not. I really did not know the purpose of my trip up here. I would like to say this: That I came as the representative of and at the request of the Florence Chamber of Commerce and the Sheffield Board of Commerce and the Tuscumbia Chamber of Commerce, which are the three principal towns in the Muscle Shoals

area.

I would like to add my endorsement to what Mr. Shelton said in regard to Mr. Lilienthal being a man of courage and character and principle insofar as we know him, and a man of fairness and one who has cooperated with our communities in every way.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you have any statement or observations in connection with Mr. Lilienthal, who has been appointed Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission?

Mr. ECKL. No, sir; there is one only little thing that comes to my mind in that connection, and that is the great misgivings that many people had in regard to the TVA program at its beginning. We did not have those misgivings in my particular case. Unlike Mr. Shelton, our papers supported the TVA program during the time it was being debated in Congress and thereafter, and we have seen no reason to withdraw any support since. As a matter of fact, we feel more kindly and more strongly in favor of the program now than ever.

I would say this: That we did have a great doubt in our minds at the time that there would ever be any use for all the power that the Tennessee River would create. But I remember one occasion, one of the first occasions, when I met Mr. Lilienthal. There were a banker and publisher of our paper, now dead, and myself, and two or three other members of the community, who were going over the district taking a look at the facilities left over from World War I. The banker, Mr. Robert Martin of Florence, Ala., I remember asked Mr. Lilienthal a question: "What in the world will they ever do with all that power?" And Mr. Lilienthal, as I recall it, made the prediction that it would be insufficient. And, of course, none of us believed him; we all hoped he was right, however.

I made a mental note at that time that if that were true, I certainly thought he was a man who had some vision about him. I thought he was wrong but I don't think that any longer. The CHAIRMAN. Does that conclude Mr. ECKL. Yes, sir.

your

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions?

statement?

Senator MCKELLER. May I ask: When did you meet Mr. Lilienthal first?

Mr. ECKL. Senator McKellar, I met Mr. Lilienthal a short time after his appointment to the TVA Board originally. I think it was in the latter part of 1933 or the early part of 1934, if I remember correctly.

Senator MCKELLAR. Did you know the Chairman of the Board, Dr. Morgan?