knew that was the Daily Worker, because I had seen that bundle come to that building.

Senator MCMAHON. Now, you see the boy go into the building, and he goes up to the second floor.

Mr. BARKER. We were there before he got to the second floor. We had to be up in that building, because the keys would not unlock the door.

Senator MCMAHON. Trace the boy's activity for me. He gets the bundle of Daily Workers from the newsstand. What did you see him do then?

Mr. BARKER. I did not follow the boy that day. You see, I had followed him previously. And I knew that he was picking up the Daily Worker. He had picked it up a couple of times there before; the same boy each time. So we just watched him when we went to the Lotspeich Building. We could go clear to the corner of the building and put up a window and look out and look clear down Market Street. And we could see almost down to old man Biler's newspaper stand. Senator MCMAHON. Did you see the boy come down the street with the bundle?

Mr. BARKER. We saw him go down the street and go in the TVA Building.

Senator MCMAHON. With the bundle?

Mr. BARKER. With the bundle of papers.

Senator MCMAHON. What else did you see? Did you see him go up the stairs?

Mr. BARKER. No; he used an elevator.

Senator MCMAHON. Did you see that?

Mr. BARKER. No; we could not see that from where we were. All we could see was this string of offices on Union Avenue. And when this kid walked into this office, he handed this roll of papers to a redhaired man, a red-headed fellow.

And I said to Wolfe: "Who is the red-headed man?"
And he said, "That is David Stone Martin."

Now, David Stone Martin was one of the employees of the Tennessee Valley Authority that Mr. Starnes found to be a Communist. Senator MCMAHON. Now, did you see him hand out the papers? Mr. BARKER. He handed them out on that side of that building. Then he went some other place with the remainder of them.

Senator MCMAHON. You saw him handing the papers out to all the employees?

Mr. BARKER. Yes; that is right.

Senator MCMAHON. And did every employee take it that you saw him offer it to?

Mr. BARKER. He did not give it to everybody. My recollection is that he did not give it to everybody on that side of the building. He gave it to a few on that side of the building. Maybe 10 or 15.

Senator KNOWLAND. How many employees were there on that side of the building?

Mr. BARKER. I do not know. I did not get into that building. Senator KNOWLAND. You were looking with your binoculars into the building, and you knew whether there were 3 people in an office or 15 or 100 people in that office.

Mr. BARKER. Those offices were cut up into smaller sections, you

see.

Senator KNOWLAND. But I mean, in an office, for instance, if there are a lot of craftsmen there, they might have 50 people in 1 office, and he might hand it to 1 person or 3 people. Could you get any idea as to the percentage of people that he was handing the papers to?

Mr. BARKER. No; I was very busy trying to get down the names of these people, as we saw David Stone Martin give the papers to them. Now, let me explain.

Before we had started this, I had inspected some trash baskets from the TVA and found copies of the Daily Worker and the New Masses in there, before we started this arrangement. I just went around to see what was in their trash.

The CHAIRMAN. That might be a very appropriate disposition for those papers.

Mr. BARKER. Yes. Some of them had torn them up into small pieces. Some of them had put them inside another paper and put it down in the wastepaper basket.

And some of them had just dropped them in the wastepaper basket. Senator KNOWLAND. Did this man that you were with know all the employees?

Mr. BARKER. He knew an enormous number of the employees in the Tennessee Valley Authority.

Senator KNOWLAND. It would seem to me--because I am interested in the percentage of people who were getting these papers-that as you looked across the street there, there would be some people that would be perhaps facing the window, some whose desks would be faced sideways.

Mr. BARKER. Some were not even there. They came in late. Senator KNOWLAND. Could he tell these people enough so that if he saw the back of a man's head, he could tell who it was?

Mr. BARKER. He knew quite a few of them.

Then we went down the street to this other place to look in the Daylight Building. There was a smaller bundle of papers that went over there to the Daylight Building.

But we got to the Daylight Building too late. I mean, we got to our place to look up in the Daylight Building too late to get the names of any of the people who got the papers.

They apparently had passed them out before we got there. Senator KNOWLAND. Now, you did not get the impression that this was a kind of a free distribution; that they were going down and handing a paper to everybody in the office on a general distribution to everyone in those offices; did you?

Mr. BARKER. No; I did not think so.

Senator KNOWLAND. Did they seem to pick and choose as they went down those offices?

Mr. BARKER. Yes, sir. The Communist Party charges for their literature. They do not give anything away. No, you pay for every pamphlet and everything else that you get in the Communist Party.

So my idea about it at that time, Senator, was that it was being delivered to the persons who

Senator KNOWLAND. To the subscribers?

Mr. BARKER. To the subscribers; yes.

Now, I proposed to Wolfe that we go through the building at some time, just to see who was reading the paper. And Wolfe said: "No," that would put him in jeopardy.

And it would have.

Senator RUSSELL. How do you mean "in jeopardy", Mr. Barker? Mr. BARKER. Well, if I had walked in the office with Wolfe, the inquiries would have been made as to who that person was. Because the TVA had that whole building.

Of course, they did have visitors, and so forth. But if we had subsequently published the information about who was getting the paper, and so forth, and they had seen Wolfe meet with me, and my identity had become known later, then they would connect the two together immediately and Wolfe would have been fired from the TVA. They would have canned him right then.

Senator RUSSELL. That is a public building. Did they not allow anybody in?

Mr. BARKER. No, sir; it was not a public building. They had guards on the door.

Senator KNOWLAND. This was during the wartime?

Mr. BARKER. No; this was 1940, but you remember the President declared a limited state of emergency in September 1939, I believe it was.

Senator KNOWLAND. So they required some kind of a pass to get into the building.

Mr. BARKER. Well, unless the employees were known; yes.
Senator MCKELLAR. Is there anything further about that?
Mr. BARKER. Not right at the moment.

Senator MCKELLAR. I want to ask you: What about Mr. Starnes? Was he not with you at one time down there?

Mr. BARKER. Well, that was later. This investigation ran along for about a month. And during the time the investigation was going along, I thought I had found the information Mr. Dies was looking for; that there was Communist activity in the Tennessee. Valley Authority, and that the Communists had considerable influence. in the Tennessee Valley Authority.

And I had talked to a number of people regarding the matter, outside TVA, of course. I talked to a lot of TVA employees.

They told me that the Communist Party and their left-wing fellow travelers had considerable influence at a pretty high level in the TVA.

So I called up Mr. Dies and asked him: "I may be wrong about this, but I think I have a good story down here for you in this TVA, and I would like you to send somebody down to help me and to check up on it for themselves."

So Mr. Dies sent two investigators to Knoxville. They came on a plane. They were there for a day or two. I forget how long, exactly, they were there.

Their names were James E. Kenney and George F. Hurley.

Kenney had been a lieutenant of detectives here in Washington, and I think a robber shot his trigger finger off, and he had to retire. He came to work with the Dies committee. He was a smart investigator, a good man.

Now, this George F. Hurley had been a former agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

They came to Knoxville, and I met them at the airport. I believe I did. And we went down to the basement, room 11, in the Federal Building at Knoxville.

Senator MCMAHON. Mr. Barker, you seem to have a phenomenal memory for dates and numbers and places. But you do not remember where you had those photostats made over at Birmingham, do you? Mr. BARKER. No. sir; I cannot remember the name of that company. And you know, I do remember names very readily. But I do recall this: I believe there was a crippled man who made the photostats, and if I could see the name of the company, I would probably recognize it.

Senator MCKELLAR. I think it is in the record. Could we have the record and let him look at it?

Senator MCMAHON. Did you show this Hart letter to Hurley or Kenney?

Mr. BARKER. I don't think so.

Senator MCMAHON. They came down there to assist you in the investigation?

Mr. BARKER. Yes, sir; to examine witnesses.

Senator MCMAHON. I see. Did you tell them about this letter? Mr. BARKER. I don't think so.

Senator MCMAHON. You told Mr. Dies that this, you thought, was the major piece of evidence you had when you came back from Birmingham?

Mr. BARKER. Yes; and that was the reason Mr. Dies ordered that investigation in TVA.

Senator MCMAHON. Did you ever say anything to Mr. Starnes about this letter?

Mr. BARKER. I don't think I ever mentioned this letter to Mr. Starnes.

Senator MCMAHON. He was in charge of the TVA investigation; was he not?

Mr. BARKER. He was later on. You see, when we completed the investigation down there in Knoxville, I wrote out subpenas for about 25 or 30 TVA employees and about 12 or 14 other people, all of them forthwith. All of them came to Wasington, D. Ć.

I called up Mr. Dies, and I had forgotten about it, when I testified before that other committee, but Mr. Dies asked me to prepare him a little press release about this matter.

The CHAIRMAN. Before we go into that, if I may interrupt, Mr. Barker

Mr. BARKER. I found the names of those witnesses on that press release.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you take it to the Electric Blueprinting Co., Inc., of Birmingham, Ala.? Or Mr. W. Roydon Hulen, secretarytreasurer of that company?

Mr. BARKER. I believe that is the place. As I recall, the man was a crippled man, who made the photostats.

Well, we got these subpenas made out for all these people and were going to give them to the United States marshal, Henry R. Bell, known as "Peg" Bell, in Knoxville, to summon these witnesses to appear here in Washington. There is this Republican newspaper down there, the Knoxville Journal. In some manner-and they didn't get it from me-they got a list of those witnesses. There are three places they could have gotten them. They could have gotten them from the Western Union, the district passenger agent of the Southern Railway, or from the docket of the United States Marshal, which is

a public docket. He enters them on the docket, and they leave it open on the counter.

But, anyway, they put a big spread on the front page about all these TVA-ers being summoned to Washington for investigation by the Dies committee, and that caused quite a stir up here. Mr. Dies did not like, it and Mr. Starnes liked it even less, because Mr. Starnes had a lot of friends in TVA.

So Mr. Dies called me up and said: "Cancel all those subpenas for those people in the TVA. But bring those other witnesses and come on to Washington."

So I came back by automobile, and the other witnesses came up here by train.

Now, I thought all the time this was going to be a public hearing. We were going to get over in the House caucus room and just blast it all out in public where everybody would have a chance to be confronted with the evidence against them and the accusations against them, and so forth. But when I got up here, they didn't hold any public hearings. They held executive sessions, and they held execu tive sessions over in the Capitol, in the House wing, in the private offices of Speaker Bankhead of Alabama. And that is where the witnesses were heard on June the 3d, 1940.

Then, following that, following those hearings in executive session here in Washington, Mr. Dies appointed Mr. Starnes as a subcommittee of one to go down to Chattanooga and hear the remainder of the witnesses. But they wanted me only to summon those witnesses against whom I had the best evidence that they were Communists. And they struck my list down from 28, I believe to 6 or 7.

We held those hearings in Chattanooga, Mr. Starnes and I. We were the only two there. The hearings were held on July 17, 1940. Senator MCKELLAR. You and Mr. Starnes were there only 1 day? Mr. BARKER. One day. Then we came back to Washington later, and on Friday, July 26, 1940, Mr. Starnes and Mr. J. B. Matthews, the research director, and myself examined Muriel Spear Borah Williams and her husband, Stillman B. Williams, both of them employees of the Tennessee Valley Authority, who had left Knoxville and headed north while we were down there in Chattanooga-on a vacation, I think it was. And that concluded the investigation of the TVA.

Senator MCKELLAR. Did you ever count how many witnesses were shown to be Communists, from Mrs. Muriel Spear Borah Williams' statements?

Mr. BARKER. She was the chairman of the TVA branch of the Communist Party, No. 1 in Knoxville, and she refused to tell Joe Starnes, in answer to questions by me or by Starnes or by Dr. Matthews, who these Reds were, who these Communists were, in the TVA that she attended meetings with. And Henry Hart himself had committed perjury in his testimony before the Dies committee.

So when we finished with Mrs. Williams and her husband here that day, I proceeded to draw up a contempt citation against Muriel Spear Borah Williams for contempt of the House and refusing to answer questions. I also drew an information statement and a letter to be forwarded to the Attorney General for submission to James B. Frazier, Jr., United States attorney at Chattanooga, for the indictment of Henry Hart for perjury. But Mr. Starnes would not sign either one of those things.