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Baruch's sounds reasonable to me and, if true, we should have a chairman more generally endorsed.

Senator KNOWLAND. Mr. Farris, how long have you lived in the general TVA area?

Mr. FARRIS. I live at Nashville and, I think, since there has been a TVA.

Senator KNOWLAND. All your life?

Mr. FARRIS. All my life.

Senator KNOWLAND. Do you feel that the people of your area feel that the TVA has been beneficial, or not beneficial?

Mr. FARRIS. You can get an argument on that anywhere, because there are some who think it has been beneficial, and others think it has


Senator KNOWLAND. Would you care to estimate the number of people who think TVA has done a good job as opposed to those who are opposed to what it has done?

Mr. FARRIS. Possibly the better informed think it has not been done so good. Maybe those less informed may feel that it has done some good.

Senator KNOWLAND. Have you had any connection with any of the power companies in the TVA area?

Mr. FARRIS. No, sir; I am only a customer of theirs.

Senator KNOWLAND. Did you oppose the TVA at the time it was originally opposed?

Mr. FARRIS. Yes, sir. I am opposed to any form of Government ownership.

Senator KNOWLAND. That is all, for the moment.

Senator MCMAHON. May I ask a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator MCMAHON. You would not think it was being run right, no matter who ran it?

Mr. FARRIS. Well, I would not say it could not have been run better or that it might have been run worse; that is just a wide question. Senator MCMAHON. Your objection, as I get it, then, is more to the fact that we put it down there-the United States Government. put it down there-than to the way it has been operated? Mr. FARRIS. I did not understand you.

Senator MCMAHON. Your objection runs more to the point, I say, that we put it there at all than the way it is now being operated? Mr. FARRIS. Well, I was mildly opposed, you might say, just because of the opposition I have to Government ownership, that they come in and start a business as vast and as far-reaching as it was, but after we had it, naturally, I tried to get along with it the best we knew how.

Senator MCMAHON. Have you had any personal argument with it, with the TVA commission?

Mr. FARRIS. I do not know; no personal arguments; no, sir; not at all.

Senator KNOWLAND. Do you not feel, Mr. Farris, that now that the TVA has been in there that a great many of the communities that had been almost like ghost towns have taken a new lease on life and new industries have come in and port facilities, and it has given them a chance to economically develop over what they were before?

Mr. FARRIS. Well, I think that the community, the whole southern region, is improving, but that improvement would have come irrespective of TVA.

Senator KNOWLAND. I merely mention that, having heard a great deal about the TVA and having read a great deal about it, I went down there in December and spent about a week or so going into these various communities and observed and came back very favorably impressed with the type of job that had been done. I talked with a great many businessmen in the small community there and far from being a vast socialistic experiment as some people have maintained, it seemed to me that it was an injection of lifeblood into the American system of free enterprise.

A great many of the communities-the people who live there told me they had been somewhat like some of our ghost towns in the mining regions of California and those you find in some of the sections in Nevada, and that they had taken on a new lease on life since the new industries had come in. They had waterway transportation opened to them and most of them, even those who freely admitted opposing TVA originally, were enthusiastic for it.

I was wondering if your experience was so contrary to what I found; I was just wondering.

Mr. FARRIS. You can find some on both sides there on that question. Of course, I contend that we would have made this development anyhow.

Senator MCMAHON. Mr. Farris, you stated that you were against the whole idea. You knew that Senator McKellar had been probably the most active man in the Senate in securing appropriations to build these dams? You do not think Senator McKellar is a Socialist because of that?

Mr. FARRIS. No, sir; I do not.

Senator MCMAHON. You do not think he has any leftist leanings? Mr. FARRIS. No, sir.

Senator MCMAHON. That he is in any way smeared with communism or takes any stock in it?

Mr. FARRIS. Not at all.

Senator MCMAHON. So, if Mr. Lilienthal and Senator McKellar believe in the TVA, at least it is not that belief that makes Mr. Lilienthal to the left of center; is it?

Mr. FARRIS. Well, I just thought they were both wrong on it.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator McKellar?

Senator MCKELLAR. I want to ask him another question about another matter, but I will turn in here just a moment.

My good friend, Senator Knowland of California, talks about ghost towns at Tennessee. Do you remember any ghost towns in Tennessee? I have canvassed in every county in almost every district in Tennessee and I never saw any ghost towns in Tennessee long before this was put on. I never saw any; did you?

Mr. FARRIS. No, I just wondered where he got it.

Senator RUSSELL. There has been a tremendous increase of population in some of these areas?

Mr. FARRIS. And some of the communities not in the area. Senator RUSSELL. I know a great many people of my State have moved over to Tennessee. I certainly would like it if we could move

the TVA to my State. I would be willing to move it lock, stock, and barrel to have it in Georgia.

Senator MCKELLAR. You get the benefit of it anyway.

Mr. FARRIS. Possibly some people of our State moved to your State.

Senator RUSSELL. I never heard of anyone willing to move out of Tennessee when the stream of Government money made you all rich. Mr. FARRIS. I am not contending that certain industries do not get their power cheaper now than previously.

Senator RUSSELL. How about the individual consumers?

Mr. FARRIS. Well, he does, too. It depends on how you figure it; on this monthly statement he may get it cheaper, but on his tax bill he may be paying for it, or somebody somewhere else is.

Senator MCKELLAR. That is all on that subject; I want to ask you about a totally different matter.

Mr. Farris, there is a very important document in this record and a few are inclined to dispute its authenticity. That document is in the form of a letter purporting to have been written by Henry C. Hart of the TVA, at Knoxville, to Robert F. Hall, secretary of the Communist Party at Birmingham, Ala., and I have often suggested that Mr. Hart be brought here, and I expected him to go on the stand this morning, but he did not come, and I do not want to keep you here.

I want you to tell me if you know Mr. Hart and his parents, and tell us all about him, and them.

Mr. FARRIS. Well, I know Henry Hart, Jr., only very slightly, Senator. He happened to be at Vanderbilt University at the time that my oldest son was there and just in that way I came to know the boy when I saw him, and such like. I had some acquaintance and some experiences with his father and mother who were employed by Vanderbilt University.

Senator McKELLAR. In Nashville?

Mr. FARRIS. In Nashville.

The father was secretary to the University YMCA and his mother taught in the public speaking-I guess that is the designationdepartment.

On one occasion about 1936, or it must have been 1937, about the time that the attack was made on the Supreme Court, generally referred to as the Court packing bill, or something of the kind, and I believe you gentlemen know more about that than I, there was in the class work of the school this public speaking, and my son was taking it. On this particular evening they were to have some preliminary contests in preparation for the final debates for oratorial awards. I went over the gymnasium building where this evening's program was to be had and while waiting for the speaking to start I visited around in some of the halls and rooms and on one particular large room, possibly extending out into the hallway, I noticed a lot of newspaper clippings and they all had the same trend, "Senator So-and-So says this about the Supreme Court," "Congressman Soand-So says this," and that some newspaper editor says, "Such and such."

I had had some indication, or suspicion, as to the Harts' radical leanings and then I did not have time to read all the things, but I could get the headlines as to what was going to follow and they all were in favor of packing the Supreme Court so I asked Hart just why

those clippings were there and he answered that they were put there to create debate among the students.

I said, "If it is your purpose to create debate, why do you not put some of the items tending to the other side?"

He just flushed up and walked away and I never did get an answer. Senator MCKELLAR. Had he been to Russia the year before?

Mr. FARRIS. He had been to Russia about sometime in the middle thirties, so he says. I did not see him depart or come back. Senator MCKELLAR. Did he lecture when he returned?

Mr. FARRIS. He brought back from Russia, so he says, a lot of pictures, and he was showing these pictures to different groups. Senator RUSSELL. Moving pictures?

Mr. FARRIS. Yes; he had a motion-picture projector.

On a certain Sunday afternoon, my three older children were about the age to be members of the Christian Endeavor, and that is a young people's group in the Presbyterian Church-on this particular Sunday afternoon some report was made at home that Mr. Hart was going to show some pictures on Russia at the Christian Endeavor meeting following their supper program. I thought after the children left to go, of course they left to attend the supper which was part of the festivities, and I went down to the church and tried to time myself. Apparently I was successful to get there about the time that the social side of the meeting was over and possibly slip in, if I could, and hear the lecture on the Russian pictures. So I did.

I possibly got there a few minutes ahead of time and had to stand outside the church until they moved out of the dining room into the room where the pictures were to be shown. Knowing and believing, which was true, that they would make a dark room to show the pictures, I delayed going in until I thought there was ample time to get the pictures underway. I went into the door and sat on the back bench of the room and saw the pictures and heard the lecture.

Mr. Hart was careful to explain that he had been most fortunate in bringing those pictures out of Russia; that they were very jealous over there as to who saw how they were doing, but that they had allowed him this special consideration. He gave the lecture as to the advantages of their system; how it was, and how fortunate the Russian people were to be under such form of government.

During the course of the picture, I presume maybe to change the reel, he had to turn on the light, so he asked that the light be turned on, and it was.

He saw that I was sitting by the side of Mrs. Hart; that is, not immediately at the side of her, but on the same bench, and he also looked back and he saw me and he knew my feelings toward what he was doing, teaching those young people as he was, and he looked somewhat confused for a second or two, but he proceeded on with the picture. I had the idea, I do not know, it may have been just an idea, that the second part of his program he was not so enthusiastic in his praise of Russia. He went through the pictures, but there was some difference between the first part and the second part, as to his praise of what he had seen and was able to bring back with him. Senator MCKELLAR. Is that the substance of that occasion? Mr. FARRIS. That is all regarding the pictures.

Senator MCKELLAR. I want to ask you what became of Mr. Hart and his wife, the mother and father of the young man about whom so much talk has been had here recently?

Mr. FARRIS. I do not know how soon, but certainly within 2 or 3 or 4 years, the Harts left the university."

Senator McKELLAP, Do you know the reason?

Mr. FARRIS. I never actually was told the reason, but the assumption was

Senator MCMAHON. Your assumption?

Mr. FARRIS. Mine was one of them; the assumption that some of the members of the board of trustees of Vanderbilt took up Hart maybe as an issue and he left the school, whether voluntarily or by request.

Senator MCKELLAR. The board of trustees are 100 percent American; are they not?

Mr. FARRIS. Those that I talked to did not have much sympathy with what Mr. Hart was teaching.

Senator MCKELLAR. Mrs. Hart was teaching also?

Mr. FARRIS. She was teaching in the public-speaking courses. Senator RUSSEI L. Where did the Harts come from originally? Mr. FARRIS. I never knew.

Senator RUSSELL. They are not natives of Nashville?

Mr. FARRIS. I could not answer that. They were there a long time, but just low long, I do not know.

Senator RUSSI LL. They were not Presbyterians; were they?
Mr. FARRIS. Not my kind.

Senator RUSSELL. That is all I have.

The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions?

Thank you Mr. Farris.

Senator MCKELLAR. I now call Mr. Barker.

The CHAIRMAN. Raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, and nothing but the truth? Mr. BARKER. I do.


The CHAIRMAN. Will you give your full name?

Mr. BARKER. Robert B. Barker.

The CHAIRMAN. Where do you live, Mr. Barker?

Mr. BARKER. My legal residence is Maryville, Blount County, Tenn., and I am domiciled in Prince Georges County, Md. The CHAIRMAN. What is your occupation?

Mr. BARKER. I am an attorney.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you been in the past connected with the Dies Committee or the Un-American Activities Committee, either one of them, of the House of Representatives?

Mr. BARKER. Yes, sir; I was employed by the Dies committee on February 16, 1939, and my title was senior investigator and field representative. I stayed with them until February 28, 1943, when I went with the select committee of the House of Representatives to investigate the Federal Communications Commission.

Senator RUSSELL. How long did you stay with them, Mr. Barker? Mr. BARKER. I later became counsel for that committee and wound up its affairs on January 3, 1945.

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