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Senator MCKELLAR. Do you not think the United States is able to take care of itself in the present situation?

Mr. BARNARD. I think it is able to take care of itself in the present situation, but I am thinking about the situation of our grandchildren. Senator MCKELLAR. Many things can happen in that time. Mr. BARNARD. Yes, sir; I am aware of that.

Senator MCKELLAR. That would be two generations, at least. Now, what obligation is there, do you think, on the part of the United States to turn this secret over to Russia, when Russia will not even make the first step, or make any step, in agreeing to even a peace treaty?

Mr. BARNARD. None, until she does.

Senator MCKELLAR. None until she does. Well, why should we turn this over now?

Mr. BARNARD. We are not turning it over now.

Senator MCKELLAR. What are you doing with it?

Mr. BARNARD. Asking to see if we can get the agreement. Senator MCKELLAR. Why not wait until after you get the agree ment before you put the secret in the hands of a Commission that does not know anything about the bomb now themselves?

They do not know about the bomb now. Why, if you put that bomb in the hands of a committee of five men, would not the five men control the world? Would they not have complete control of this invention, or this discovery?

Mr. BARNARD. I do not think so.

Senator MCKELLAR. What would keep them from having it? Mr. BARNARD. They would have to control so many people who would be located in so many different countries.

Senator MCKELLAR. If the bomb is what we think it is, then if they did not control it, we could be destroyed mighty easily, could we not? Mr. BARNARD. I do not follow you.

Senator MCKELLAR. You do not follow me?

Mr. BARNARD. No, sir.

Senator MCKELLAR. This committee has asked for 250 millions this year of American money to carry on and make new bombs, and would it not be a pretty powerful Commission? You just said it yourself, and I want to read it to you: "An international octopus." And do you not think that anyone who has it, has this bomb, whether they are national or international, have become an octopus, or an international leviathan?

Now, you say it is an international leviathan or octopus. Why put it in the hands of a Commission of this kind?

Mr. BARNARD. Well, what other hands could you put it in?

Senator MCKELLAR. In the hands of the United States Government as a government. You know, I am afraid, Mr. Barnard, that I have a little more faith in my own Government than you have. You want a supergovernment, do you not, to have charge of this?

Will they not, as soon as they get charge of this great discovery, have tremendous power? They could drop it on most anybody who got in their way; could they not?

Mr. BARNARD. They could if they made bombs.

Senator MCKELLAR. Well, with $250,000,000 they could make a good many bombs; could they not?

Mr. BARNARD. You are talking about what committee, now?

Senator MCKELLAR. Take any committee. Take your committee or any other committee. They would have to have a good deal of power if they had this discovery in their hands, where they could manufacture bombs if they wanted to?

Mr. BARNARD. You had it under the Army once, and now you have it under another body.

Senator MCKELLAR. Yes, sir. But the Army was under an obligation to look after this Government under organized authority.

Mr. BARNARD. Do you not think the other offices of the Government have the same obligation?

Senator MCKELLAR. I do not think so at all.

Mr. BARNARD. Well, I do.

Senator MCKELLAR. I will tell you why I do not think so.

I took the lead in securing very large sums of money through a series of years to establish what was known as the Tennessee Valley Authority. It takes money to build dams, and I happened to be in a place where I could help raise this money, and I did raise it. Now, we turned that over to Mr. Lilienthal. And apparently, no laws applied to him. He at once set up for himself, or for his organization, a civil service commission of his own. The United States

Service Commission was not the proper one for him.

He also set himself up a retirement system. The United States system of retirement was not a proper one for Mr. Lilienthal. He also set himself up a TVA system of flood control. The flood-control laws of the United States were not satisfactory to him.

In the next place he set himself up a system of his own all along the line, and does not even pay his money into the Treasury of the United States, his receipts.

They have about $35,000,000 a year. He does not pay that into the Treasury of the United States, like the Post Office, like the various other offices of the Federal Government, but he has refused to pay that money in and uses it as he pleases.

I am sorry I do not have a list of some of the projects that he has undertaken. He has undertaken to have projects all over the country. He buys lands in many States. He does not confine himself to the neighborhood of the TVA, but he has bought lands out in the West and down in Florida and in various other places in our country, some in Pennsylvania, if I remember right.

I may be mistaken about that.

Why should we turn this great discovery that may revolutionize the warfare of the world, at this point in our history when we stand very well in the galaxy of nations, over to a man who apparently has no respect for the laws of the United States?

Mr. BARNARD. You are making statements of which I have no knowledge, Senator.

Senator MCKELLAR. I did not think you had. I am sure you are an honest man all the way through. I am not trying to smear you. I will tell you that.

Mr. BARNARD. Thank you, sir.

Senator MCKELLAR. I do not have the slightest notion of doing that. You referred to "innuendo." And I am not asking you questions that can only be divined by innuendo, but only questions that you know how to answer. I am going to continue that, too.

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Now, Mr. Barnard, when did you first know of the atom bomb, yourself, personally?

Mr. BARNARD. When it was announced that it had been dropped on Horoshima.

Senator MCKELLAR. Let me shake your hand. You are the first witness who has testified that his first knowledge of this bomb was when it fell upon Hiroshima.

Senator MCMAHON. Except Mr. Lilienthal.

Senator MCKELLAR. No; Mr. Lilienthal said he knew about it in 1945. He saw it in the paper.

The CHAIRMAN. As I recall, that was the time the bomb dropped on Hiroshima..

Senator MCKELLAR. I will refer to the record. The record speaks for itself. There is no doubt about what he said. At all events, you knew little about it until that time. Mr. BARNARD. No.

Senator MCKELLAR. And you knew from history that people had been trying to find out about it for a long time. Now, as soon as this great country of ours, after spending what seemed to me the largest request for appropriation that I ever heard of, $2,600,000,000-after we had spent all that money, and probably twice that amount, or more than twice that amount, and we had discovered the bomb and it had closed the greatest world war ever fought: What, as a businessman, and as a good American, which I am sure you are, even though you do not seem to have so much confidence in your Government as I would like to see you have-how do you feel about just giving it away to the rest of the world?

Mr. BARNARD. I have just been listening to you tell about how defective the United States Government was in certain directions, may I say.

Senator MCKELLAR. We hope not to repeat that mistake.

Senator KNOWLAND. Mr. Barnard, as I understand the situation, you are not proposing that the information be given to anyone who does not now have it, without adequate safeguards being put around it, safeguards such as were proposed by Mr. Baruch, perhaps, at the United Nations sessions.

It is not a question of just giving it around unless the safeguards have been established. That is a condition that would have to be met prior to any such information being given. Is that correct? Mr. BARNARD. That is correct.

Senator MCKELLAR. Mr. Chairman, can I have the LilienthalAcheson report for a moment, if it is here? I do not have it in my papers.

I want to read from page 32 for a moment. You have endorsed this report, and therefore I want to read you a part of it.

Here is a summary of the proposed plans, beginning on page 31:

The proposal contemplates an international agency conducting all intrinsically dangerous operations in the nuclear field, with individual nations and their citizens free to conduct, under license and a minimum of inspection, all nondangerous, or safe, operations.

Now, here we have the greatest discovery, scientific discovery, probably, that was ever known among men. And we are going to turn it over, here, to a national agency.

Mr. BARNARD. International, you mean?

Senator MCKELLAR. An international agency; yes.

The international agency might take any one of several forms, such as a UNO commission, or an international corporation or authority. We shall refer to it as Atomic Development Authority. It must have authority to own and lease property, and to carry on mining, manufacturing, research, licensing, inspecting, selling, or any other necessary operations.

Well, when you put a bomb like this into an international agency or authority, you have given it the greatest power that was ever bestowed upon any organization; have you not? Is that not right? Mr. BARNARD. That is quite right, Senator. There is no doubt about it.

Senator MCKELLAR. I was quite sure you would say so.

It must have authority to own and lease property, carry on mining and manufacturing, research, licensing, inspecting, selling, or any other necessary operations. That is a pretty broad authority; is it not?

Mr. BARNARD. Quite so.

Senator MCKELLAR. And we are setting up a nation quite a lot larger than America was when we started.

This chapter is not an attempt to write a corporate charter for such an international agency. It is the aim, rather, to show that a charter can be written in workable terms, and that the nature of the organization and its functions will have decisive consequences for world security.

What sort of authority is that, when we have no agreement with the world?

Mr. BARNARD. You will not have the authority until you have the agreement.

Senator MCKELLAR. We will not have the authority until we have the agreement. Then I pray God that we may never have the agreement.

Mr. BARNARD. You will note from my signature there that I pray God that we may have it.

Senator MCKELLAR. Yes; I know that.

We are satisfied that the differences between national and international operations can be exploited to make the problem of atomic energy manageable. This idea, we think, can become as familiar as the fact that the differences between individual enterprise and corporate enterprise have important consequences in the conduct of business.

If we are to do anything constructive in relation to atomic energy it must inevitably be novel and immensely difficult.

You agree with that; do you not?

Mr. BARNARD. I agree with that absolutely.

Senator MCKELLAR. You cannot do that without an international agreement, and first of all you have to have that international agreement with Russia; will you not?

Mr. BARNARD. Certainly. That is the prerequisite.

Senator MCKELLAR (continuing to read):

This means all activities relating to raw materials, the construction and operation of production plants, and the conduct of research in explosives. The large field of nondangerous and relatively nondangerous activities would be left in national hands.

In other words, the dangerous entity known as the atomic energy for war, for making war bombs, is going to be put in the hands of this international group, 57 or 58 of them, I believe, and it depends upon what they say as to how it will be used. If that committee, having

this enormous power, saw fit to just use that as a nucleus upon which to found a world safe, they could do it, could they not?

Would they not have the power to do it?

Mr. BARNARD. I doubt it.

Senator McKELLAR. You doubt it?

Mr. BARNARD. Yes, sir.

Senator MCKELLAR. Well, is your doubt so much that you are willing to take it away from the United States Government and turn it over to an organization of this kind?

Mr. BARNARD. If the United States Government can get that kind of an organization, it would be a cheap price to pay.

Senator MCKELLAR. If they can get it. But they will not be able to get it. That will be appointed by the United Nations.

Mr. BARNARD. We are a part of the United Nations.

Senator MCKELLAR. We would just be 1 in 57. And here we are giving them the greatest discovery ever made.

The large field of nondangerous and relatively nondangerous activities would be left in national hands.

We could get as much of that as we wanted.

These would consist of all activities in the field of research (except on explosives) and the construction and operation of nondangerous power-producing piles. And national acitivities in these fields would be subject to moderate controls by the international agency * * *

Not by the United States; not by the United Nations; but left to the control of the international agency.

The international agency would also maintain inspection facilities to assure that illicit operations were not occurring, primarily in the exploitation of raw materials. It would be a further function of the Atomic Development Authority continually to reexamine the boundary between dangerous and nondangerous activities. For it must be recognized that although the field is subject to reasonable division, the dividing line is not sharp and may shift from time to time in either direction.

This goes on to say:

The development agency itself would be truly international in character.

That is the development agency. We are after spending this enormous amount of money and the greatest genius of any nation in the world, and you want to turn it over to an agency that would be recruited on an international basis. Is that correct?

Mr. BARNARD. That is absolutely correct.

Senator MCKELLAR. You want the United States, instead of owning this bomb, to just be one nation in 57 or 58 that would own it. Mr. BARNARD. That is correct, sir. I think this Nation would be destroyed unless it can effect that kind of an agreement.

Senator MCKELLAR. Although we now own the bomb, you think the United States might be destroyed.

Mr. BARNARD. Yes.

Senator MCKELLAR. I have great respect for you, Mr. Barnard, but I do not agree with you. That is not by innuendo or smears, either. I do not know where you got those words, unless you got them out of these recent

Mr. BARNARD. Newspaper articles.

Senator MCKELLAR. It sounded like it; yes.

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