light of the area of interchange of military information that quite properly goes on, in that military sense, makes our own security limitations appear ludicrous.

Now, you cannot maintain security by gross inconsistencies if you are making yourself a laughing stock.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Lilienthal, let me suggest this to you: I remember very well, as a member of the Senate special committee, as were most of those who are present here now, that last year the Senate special committee was subjected to criticism that was most caustic indeed, from various scientific groups and others in this country, because, first, we were trying to preserve some secrecy, and secondly, Senator Vandenberg developed horns longer than a Texas steer in the minds of at least certain groups because he dared to suggest that we had some national security to look to when he proposed the Military Liaison Committee.

Now, we were criticized, and the Manhattan district was criticized, by certain groups, because there was not a great deal more information and publicity given on detail and scientific development than was given in the Smythe report.

And we were told by many scientists at that time that the Smythe report was merely a rudimentary report containing only generalities that every top-flight scientist had really known for a long time.

And we were assured by many outstanding scientists that the Smythe report did not give too much aid and comfort to anyone seeking this information, if he were a really top-flight physicist in other parts of the world.

Now, we are laymen-at least I am--and I did not know but what those conditions did exist. And we were very caustically criticized, repeatedly and in quite substantial volume over this country, because there was not more publicity and more detail and more disclosure of secrets than was contained in the Smyth report and some of the other revelations that have been made since.

Senator MILLIKIN. Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask Mr. Lilienthal if he has had any reason to be concerned over possible breach of security through the operation of foreign intelligence in this countrywithout going into detail.

I distinctly do not want him to specify any country or go into any detail. I merely want the conclusion as to whether he has had any reason to be concerned.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Will you reserve that question?

Senator MILLIKIN. I will if you wish.

May I put it this way: I assume it is a matter of intense interest. Am I correct in that?

Mr. LILIENTHAL. You are correct in that.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions by committee members at this time?

Senator VANDENBERG. You talk a little longer about this thing, and I will quit worrying about you and security.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. Really what I think we have got to do is to organize a group of from three to five men of great wisdom and understanding and set them to work for this committee and for the Commission studying this problem in the light of American customs and ways. We cannot attempt something in the way of security that the American

people will not stand for; I mean just ordinary folk-and find an answer that will be more effective than what we have now.

group

Now, what we have now is a continuation of the Manhattan district security measures, with a very good group of men, and an able of men. We have called one or two former Manhattan men back who had left after the war. But that is not going to be good enough for the years that we have ahead of us, I am afraid, and this is something that I think ought to be discussed informally with the committee at some length.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any other question?

Mr. Lilienthal, Senator McKellar, a Member of the Senate, has specifically requested, as he has a right to do as a Member of the Senate, the right and the privilege of taking up some of his views with you and expressing some of his views to the committee.

I may say that committee hearings provide about the only opportunity for a Member of the Senate, who has to vote on these things eventually, to express himself on the issue.

He was unable to be here today because he has another meeting that he seems to be interested in. He has to go up there this afternoon. And I assured him that at a later date, probably sometime this week, when he could appear, we would ask you if you would come again upon the stand and either be questioned or be present when he makes his statement or whatever action he cares to take on that. Mr. LILIENTHAL. I shall be very glad to.

Senator VANDENBERG. Did you say you would be very happy to? [Laughter.]

The CHAIRMAN. I take it that no formal introductions are necessary. You have met Senator McKellar before.

And we expect to discuss some of these matters with you in executive session at a later date also. We may want to recall you. There may be some questions that will come up in connection with these other gentlemen, and we may want to recall you, so I hope you will hold yourself available.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I shall certainly do so.

I wonder what is the proper procedure to correct a statement that I made in respect to our seeing General Groves?

The CHAIRMAN. You have the privilege of correcting or making clear any statements you made.

Mr. LILIENTHAL. I was in error.

I stated that the Commission had not consulted with General Groves since January 1, and it turns out that that was considerably in error.

Also, I did not state, as I should have, that on the first day we were designated we met with Secretary Patterson and General Groves, and Secretary Patterson urged strongly that the Army be relieved of its responsibility as promptly as possible, and has set dates, beginning February 1st, for relief of officers.

It was made clear to us then that General Groves would prefer to designate and he did designate-his deputy, Colonel Nichols, to deal with us on most matters; and there were many, many conferences with Colonel Nichols, and this was in accordance with General Groves' expressed desire.

(Witness excused.)

The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Bacher?

Do you solemnly swear that the statements you make will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Dr. BACHER. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Bacher, you have been named by the President as a member of the Atomic Energy Commission, have you not? Dr. BACHER. I have.

The CHAIRMAN. At this point, I would like to put into the record the statement of qualifications submitted by the President along with the appointment and the nomination of Dr. Bacher.

QUALIFICATIONS OF DR. ROBERT FOX BACHER

Born: Loudonville, Ohio, August 31, 1905.
Attended public schools in Ann Arbor, Mich.

Received bachelor of science

from University of Michigan in 1926 and doctor of philosophy in physics in 1930. During 1930-31, National Research Council fellow in physics at California Institute of Technology.

During 1931-32, National Research Council fellow, Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

During 1932-33 Alfred Lloyd fellow, University of Michigan.

1934-35, instructor of physics at Columbia University.

In 1935 joined the staff at Cornell University where he has been since that time except for the war years when he was on leave. He has most recently been professor of physics and director of laboratory of nuclear studies at Cornell University.

During 1941 to 1943, he was at the radiation laboratory at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology where he was in charge of division of radar receiver and indicator components and radar beacons.

In the spring of 1943 he went to Los Alamos Laboratory as head of the experimental physics division and was later head of the bomb physics division.

During the past year, he served as member of the scientific panel to the United States representative to the United Nations Atomic Energy Commission; as member of the Declassification Committee and Scientific Advisory Committee of the Manhattan engineer district; as a trustee, member of the executive committee, and chairman of the planning committee for Associated Universities, Inc., which is setting up the Brookhaven National Laboratory on Long Island.

TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT FOX BACHER, APPOINTEE TO THE UNITED STATES ATOMIC ENERGY COMMISSION

The CHAIRMAN. The history of your activities, Doctor, indicates that you were born in Loudonville, Ohio, in 1905; that you attended the public schools in Ann Arbor, Mich., and you received a bachelor of science degree from the University of Michigan in 1926, and a doctor of philosophy in physics in 1930.

Dr. BACHER. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. What particular field or branch of physics have you specialized in, if any, since that time?

Dr. BACHER. I have worked largely, Mr. Chairman, in nuclear physics.

The CHAIRMAN. I notice from the qualifications submitted by the President here that you are a member of various scientific and research societies, and that you have been on the staff of Cornell University; that you have done work in the radiation laboratory at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology; that you have served in the Los Alamos Laboratory as head of the experimental physics division; that you were later head of the bomb physics division; that you have been serving as a member of the scientific panel to the United States representative to the United Nations Atomic Energy Commission,

and as a member of the Declassification Committee and Scientific Advisory Committee of the Manhattan engineer district.

Perhaps you have some information as to how the Smyth report got released.

That you are also a trustee and member of the executive committee and chairman of the planning committee for Associated Universities, Inc.

And you have now been appointed by the President as a member of this Commission.

How long have you been associated with the Manhattan district or the direct production work on the atomic bomb?

Dr. BACHER. I hesitate, Mr. Chairman, to give an exact beginning date to that, but to the best of my knowledge, it was sometime in early 1943 that I became directly associated with the Manhattan district.

Prior to that, we had carried out some work at Cornell, which was of interest to this project, before the Manhattan engineering district was formed, or was delegated to this particular project.

The CHAIRMAN. In connection with your past experience in this atomic energy field, and considering your present appointment as a member of this Board, what in general do you conceive to be your approach or your duties on this Board as a member?

Now, that is a rather large question, but if you can, I should like to have you give us in general your concept of your obligations and your duties as a member of the Commission.

Dr. BACHER. It has been, Mr. Chairman, our idea, in the operation of this Commission, that there be no delegation of duty; that the Commission meet, discuss all questions, and that there be no individually assigned responsibilities.

Accordingly, I imagine that I will have no direct responsibilities for scientific and technical work carried on by the Commission. But for the other members of the Commission who have not had this same connection with the work of the Manhattan project in the past, I may be able to interpret some of the findings, both now and those which have been made recently, so that we can better come to con-clusions about what policies can be carried out.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, at that point: Under the arrangements with the Commission up to date, you are not supposed to take over the management of the scientific laboratories of the Commission, but rather act as a member of the Commission, bringing merely past technical experience and present knowledge, and general advice in the making up of their policies?

Dr. BACHER. That is correct, sir.

In addition to this, I think I might say that we realize that we have an obligation here for a long-term development, which is somewhat different from the obligation that existed in the past for the Manhattan engineer district; and that in setting a long-range course, which may very well be the very core of this question of security for the country, which has been discussed, there are many questions to which we do not know the answer today, which we may find out in the near future, which may determine the direction in which we go, and in fact may change it quite considerably from what we imagine it to be today.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you, Doctor: What do you consider is the present usable or provable field of atomic energy; that is, today? Dr. BACHER. Well, sir, it has already been shown that you can make atomic bombs, so it is clear that as a weapon, atomic energy can be so used. And indeed, I think it is a rather considerable weapon. The CHAIRMAN. That might be understatement.

Dr. BACHER. In addition to that, it is also quite clear, from some of the announcements which have been made, that there are certain new substances which can be produced, and which can be used in various branches of research and development work: Radioactive isotopes. These are now actually in production at the plants at Oak Ridge, and I believe will be quite great tools in furthering our knowledge in the various sciences, and I think that is true particularly in the fields of biology and medicine.

These are things that are, I believe, proved today, and in operation. There is also the very great possibility that we may be able to get considerable quantities of power from atomic energy reactors. Certainly, great amounts of power are available.

Whether this can be done in the near future or not is merely a question of how fast the technical developments which are necessary can be pushed.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you say those technical developments are mechanical or engineering in their major fields, or is there a lot of physics to be worked out?

Dr. BACHER. May I speak a little more generally. There is still quite a bit of basic science on the question of materials, engineering design, and things of this sort, which must be worked out.

But whenever I hear statements made by people who say that it will be 50 years before atomic power is achieved in any usable form, I am always inclined to turn around and look backward in time over what has happened in the last 4 years.

The CHAIRMAN. In view of the fact that the weapon part of atomic energy is such a major phase of our present knowledge and present use of it, what is your general attitude on the maintenance of full and complete information and liaison and cooperation as to the security matters of our Government and our Nation; that is, between the Commission as a civilian commission, with civilian objectives generally, and the military aspects at the present time?

Dr. BACHER. Well, sir, I believe there is no question in my mind at all that it is necessary to maintain the closest liaison with the military on this question.

Because the primary use which has been made of atomic energy to date is for purposes of a weapon. And indeed, it seems to be a very important weapon.

Regarding the question of security, it is of course necessary to carry out any liaison with any group in such a way that questions of the highest secrecy are available only to a very limited number of people. I believe this is commonly regarded as the essence of security measures, and is one which was practiced all through the war on this project. Senator MCMAHON. Doctor, obviously if we do not succeed in getting an effective international control of atomic energy, the possibility of the development of it for domestic purposes and peaceful purposes is very much restricted and restrained, is it not?